Hot water recirculation pump on well

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Kevin Bailey

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Hello All -

I'm looking to install a timer based recirculation pump for my hot water lines. My design is below.

A couple of things to note:
  1. The master bath and basement sink are the furthest fixtures from the WH
  2. The hot supply to the basement sink will be disconnected and used as the return
  3. The basement sink supply will be tapped off the master bathroom tub supply
  4. Cold water supplies are not shown for the master bath tub and basement sink, but implied
  5. Check valve flows are shown by the flow arrows
Some of my considerations/concerns:
  1. Most of the recirculation pump install instructions want to push the hot back into the cold supply lines, I didn't want that due to the pressure tank and water softener
  2. Most dedicated return lines show the return to the WH drain, I didn't want that due to the possible sediment ruining the pump
  3. Not sure how to match up the ratings of the check valves with the pump
  4. Concerned that the Pressure Relief Valve (PRV) might dump all the return water when the pump is running
  5. Not entirely confident I need to connect the master bath tub and basement sink supplies, might be that I just need to connect one fixture and it will work magically ;)
So by all means, beat this design with a shovel because I'm not married to it and nothing gets wet if you do
Recirc_Diagram.png
 
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Reach4

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Most of the recirculation pump install instructions want to push the hot back into the cold supply lines, I didn't want that due to the pressure tank and water softener
I don't see a problem there, as long as the cold is going through the softener also.
Most dedicated return lines show the return to the WH drain, I didn't want that due to the possible sediment ruining the pump
Those are usually for systems with no pump, relying on gravity. However that can be used with a pump also. A few WHs have a dedicated return line input.

Regarding sediment, you would be pushing water into the bottom, rather than pulling there. Therefore sediment should not be picked up.
Concerned that the Pressure Relief Valve (PRV) might dump all the return water when the pump is running

I think you are talking about the T+P valve. That problem does not exist.

Note there is more than one way for hot water recirculation to work. The most common is to use a slow pump that keeps water hot all of the time, or during times determined by a timer. A less common way is to use a faster pump that circulates for a limited amount of time when a switch is triggered. That is not as automatic, but will consume less energy. Both ways save water compared to letting the faucet run until the water at the faucet gets warm enough.
 

Jadnashua

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For retrofit, it's usually much easier to pump the water back on the cold supply line. With a well-designed system, that may not be an issue. Mine was retrofitted, the pump doesn't run continuously, and I find that if I flush the toilet, that purges all of the warm water in the line and I get cold there in the vanity within a few seconds.

But, that being said, all of those designs will also work with a dedicated return line, and then, that (maybe not much of a ) problem goes away. The return line does not need to be all that big - a 1/2" copper or pex is more than enough. Since the flow is low, there's not much friction in the run to require a larger pump. Keep in mind that high velocity can literally erode the insides of the piping. The Copper Institute's guidelines is a maximum of 5fps for hot water. On a 1/2" copper line, that's only 4gpm, or 8 for a 3/4" line. Once you get the line warm, it only takes a dribble to keep it there.

You don't show any way to either stop the recirculation which could be an aquastat to turn the pump off, or a thermally controlled valve. You don't really want full-temperature hot water sitting in the lines constantly. Most of the engineered systems shut down the recirculation in one way or another once the water gets to about 105-degrees, which lowered the radiation losses.

Running the pump will not generate any appreciable pressure in the lines unless you've got WAY too big of a pump in there...the fear for the T&P valve is unfounded. Even with an obstruction or blockage in the line, most recirc systems won't pressurize the line more than a few pounds or so. Mine is all of 1/28th HP, not even 30W, and it runs maybe 5-minutes/hour. Because the water is in a closed loop, it neither needs to be very big nor does it need much volume. If running on a timer, the first time during the day it is turned on, so what if it takes a few minutes to get hot water there? Thereafter, it will be constant.

FWIW, some tempering valves have a port for the recirculation line, and that's one less T you need to install.

Pushing water back into the drain of the WH should not be an issue with sediment.

You don't need that second check valve if you return it to the WH drain, and could probably not have an issue if you added a T on the cold inlet to the WH.

One of the simplest ones to install (if you can get power underneath the furthest vanity), is the self-contained RedyTemp unit. Mine has been running without issues for 12-years now. It will work just as well using a dedicated return line. It doesn't need anything else, no extra check valves, etc., just remove the supply lines to the sink, place them on the outlet of the unit, run new lines (it comes with them) from the inlet of the system to the wall and plug it in, you're done. You do pay for the convenience, but it does work. In my case, it was easy to drop a lead down from the existing receptacle and add a new one inside of the cabinet to power the thing. You may not as lucky.
 

Jadnashua

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He has a basement. You have a slab.
I never said I had a slab, and I don't. It's still easier to use the cold line for a return, but if you can run a new line for a dedicated one, it does overcome some of the perceived problems. In my case, the system has an adjustable aquastat, and I have it stop when it gets warm (this turns the pump off to save electricity)...things closer to the WH are hot, but that also limits how much warm water goes into the cold line. It get hot at the tub/shower since it's closer to the supply, and warm at the vanity so I can wash my hands. If I use more water there, it's hot quite quickly.
 

Kevin Bailey

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WOW! Excellent information. Much appreciated!

I think you are talking about the T+P valve. That problem does not exist.

HA! yes.... yes that's what I was talking about :)

The most common is to use a slow pump that keeps water hot all of the time, or during times determined by a timer.

Yes, this is what I was planning (using a slow pump running on a timer) but failed to mention it in the design
 

Kevin Bailey

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The return line does not need to be all that big - a 1/2" copper or pex is more than enough. Since the flow is low, there's not much friction in the run to require a larger pump.

YES! I planned on using PEX, but I hadn't considered what size. Thank you for that.

You don't show any way to either stop the recirculation which could be an aquastat to turn the pump off, or a thermally controlled valve.

I was under the impression that the timer on the pump would stop that. I should have noted that on the diagram. I didn't consider temperature in the lines to be a shut-off factor.

Running the pump will not generate any appreciable pressure in the lines unless you've got WAY too big of a pump in there...the fear for the T&P valve is unfounded.

Perfect! My design didn't mention using a slow pump, but that is what I plan on using.

You don't need that second check valve if you return it to the WH drain

One of the concerns (not mentioned) I had with the return line to the WH drain was a maintenance issue. I didn't want to obstruct the drain as I do drain the sediment from it every year

One of the simplest ones to install (if you can get power underneath the furthest vanity), is the self-contained RedyTemp unit.

Thank you, I'll take a look
 

Jadnashua

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First, if you do want to do the recommended drain on the WH, the existing typical drain valve is nearly useless...you want a full-port ball valve. So, pull that valve out, put in a short nipple (brass), then screw on a T, on the straight out side, put a ball valve so you'll have a straight shot into the tank and connect your recirculation return into the T.
 
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