Help with well pressure!!

[Efrain]

Hello all,
I'm new on here but this place has been very helpful.

To give as much background as possible .....this will be a little long.

I have an about 400ft well pump (no clue on model, just moved) with originally a 20gal wells troll pressure tank. Running on a 40/60 psi setup.

About a month ago as I was attempting to top off my swimming pool I noticed my pressure dropped significantly and pump was not shutting off. Jumped on this forum and saw some tips and tricks here and there. I shut the breaker and drained tank checked air pressure..... it was like 10psi. Imidietly knew it was the tank.......
Replaced the tank with an A.O. Smith from Lowes (with new switch, huge and fittings) but I couldn't get the system up to the 60 psi so pump could shut off. So in order to have water a d assure pump wouldn't constantly run I dropped the pressure to a 25/45 psi setup. That seemed to be working ok. A week later (after I got fed up with the fact I couldn't spray off the soap on my car) I decided to try and set the system back to a 40/60 setup.....and wouldn't you know it everything worked out ok. ..........fast forward to today a month later ,,,,,,,,

I was watering my lawn (same faucet used when topping off pool) and pressure dropped again.

Background on faucet location: first T off right after the tank.

I turned off the faucet and now pressure again does not get a ove 35psi, and while water is going in the tank, it's not much because I can shake it easier than before.

Tank is holding pressure at the 38psi setpoint

Pressure when faucet is open/ no water in tank .... is about 15 or 20 psi.


I have a couple of thought and need your help.... I'm thinking weak pump or something a obout me running this faucet is causing issues.......

I was thinking maybe my pump "overheated" and isnt strong enough to pump up the pressure , so I turned the breaker off for the night and will check again In the am.

Any help would be appreciated

 

[Reach4]

Is the pump going bad, or did the well run short of water? Sounds like the well has limited recovery. If the pressure is back up in the morning, then it would probably be that the well has limits.

There are devices that can detect running short of water , and shut down the pump for a while. When you run out of water, the current to the pump drops. You can use a clamp-around ammeter to detect that, or have a device do it for you.

I am not a pro.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Efrain]

Rach4,
Thanks for the input. Hadn't thought about well running low.... the 400ft into the ground, I would think it could produce lots of water.


Update, I flipped the breaker this am a d pressure is reaching about 55 psi but not quite enough (60psi) to shut

 

[Valveman]

When you run the hose for a length of time you are drawing the water level down so low the pump is no longer able to build to 60 PSI. If it is pumping the well dry, you may have damaged the impellers until the pump can no longer build 60 PSI, even after the water level recovers. The pump running continuously while using the hose is a good thing, as long as the well does not run dry. Making the pump cycle on and off from 25/45 is not good for the pump. You just need to reduce the amount going out of the hose so you don't pump the well dry. But if the pump can't build to 60 anymore, turn it down to 30/50 and start saving money for a new pump, as it won't be long.

 

[Efrain]

Valveman,
Thank you for the input !

I tried the 30 50 setup and it works, but it takes a little longer to get to 50psi , about 90 seconds or so.... is that normal?

What size pump should I look into....

It's a 6 inch drilled well, and the metal tag on it says it's about 400 ft

 

[Reach4]

I tried the 30 50 setup and it works, but it takes a little longer to get to 50psi , about 90 seconds or so.... is that normal?

With a 20 gallon pressure tank, that seems long. You might back off to 28/3o for now.

It's a 6 inch drilled well, and the metal tag on it says it's about 400 ft

Let's suppose the pump is set at 380, unless you have more info.

I am thinking of a 7 GPM 1.5 HP pump with a device, such as a Cycle Sensor, to shut down the pump for a while if you run out of water. 7 gpm 1 HP is almost enough. You would probably want a bigger pressure tank to go with it. Maybe 44 gallons.

7 gpm 1 HP is close. 10 gpm 1.5 HP would match the pumping conditions better.

 

[Efrain]

Reach4, I think you may be on to something.
after this incident a year ago ....
we left the house for a weekend to go visit the inlaws and when we came back everything was normal.... i even cranked the pressure up back to a 40 60 setup.......... now..... flash forward to today....
we had alot of people over for the weekend and well i noticed my water pressure is low again.... i again backed down to a 20 40 setup and it takes quite a bit to build up the draw down 5.4 gallons in the pressure tank but at least i have water and my pump isn't running continuously.... also noticed that the pump is alot heavier (pulled up on the T coupling/handle) , however i have a nice amount of pressure at the pump (faucet right at the pump) and water is nice an clean so its not murky that makes me believe it is completely dry.

someone correct me if i am wrong but low water level increase the overall head required right..... that is from what i recall from physics every foot of water is equal to about 0.43 psi... so if my well was full say 380ft it would be assisting the pump to pump that water up by quite a bit ... or am i completely clueless, and please feel free to tell me so if i am....


May i add that like 2 months ago.... we got our pool liner replaced and the guys doing it decided it was a good idea to start filling the pool up with the house water and not wait for the water truck i ordered... pressure went down ... however the water truck guy was nice enough to fill the well back up with about 350 gallons of water and that fixed it.....


reason why i keep on coming back to the idea that i may just need to either run my pump deeper or get a bigger pump, ... whats everybody's thoughts?

 

[LLigetfa]

also noticed that the pump is alot heavier (pulled up on the T coupling/handle)

That suggests the water level has dropped so it is less buoyant.

 

[Efrain]

That suggests the water level has dropped so it is less buoyant.

my thought exactly, so i plan to go out there and yank on it every day or so to see if it getting lighter. this will let me know when it might be ok to flip pressure back to 40/60 ... correct????

 

[LLigetfa]

That is a hard way to monitor the water level. Some folks just run a 1/4 inch tube down, apply air pressure, read the max pressure, and do the math.

 

[Reach4]

If we knew what pump you had, we could make some better inferences.

someone correct me if i am wrong but low water level increase the overall head required right..... that is from what i recall from physics every foot of water is equal to about 0.43 psi... so if my well was full say 380ft it would be assisting the pump to pump that water up by quite a bit ... or am i completely clueless, and please feel free to tell me so if i am....

You are correct.

reason why i keep on coming back to the idea that i may just need to either run my pump deeper or get a bigger pump, ... whats everybody's thoughts?

There are ultrasonic devices to monitor the water level. If the lower pressure alerted you to use less water when you were in danger of running out, that would be good. But if there is another 100 ft of water available, then a pump that works at a deeper level could be a good investment.

Take a look at these: http://enoscientific.com/products/

 

[LLigetfa]

A Cycle Sensor would probably give you a good indication of water level. As the level drops, the GPM drops as well and with it the amps also drops. Some pumps drop amps more than others but the Cycle Sensor is sensitive enough to detect a dead head or run dry condition.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor

 

[Efrain]

Reach4,
this is technically the 3rd time i have had issues with it so,
i plan to take it out and examine it along with measuring the length of pipe , i will update everyone. i however want to have the new pump ready to put in..... is it possible to get "too" much pump? what if i go ahead and order like a 2hp (per your reply above , head charts) and have it ready.

any recommendations on brands that are good and dont break the bank?
usually i like going to like Lowes. i see they have "Zoller" but only go up to 1hp and maybe all pumps are that expensive but seems kind of high.

i have a 2wire 230volt


those Enoscientific sensors are neat, i'm thinking i might be able to make one from scratch (actually do sensor applications and sales full time)
any idea what they are going for ?

 

[Reach4]

is it possible to get "too" much pump?

Yes.

what if i go ahead and order like a 2hp (per your reply above , head charts) and have it ready.

I would think 7 gpm 1.5 hp would be better. Such as 7GS15422C - Goulds Pumps GS Submersible Well Pump. I don't think Goulds does 2 HP in 2-wire. If you are running new wires down the well, you could go to a 3-wire pump.

Would your wire to the pump and down the well support a 2 wire 1.5 hp pump?

Whatever pump you put in, a flow inducer shroud on the pump is good in your 6 inch casing.

i see they have "Zoller" but only go up to 1hp and maybe all pumps are that expensive but seems kind of high.

Zoeller makes nice pumps, but I am not familiar with their deep well submersibles. A quick look tells me that they don't make one close to what you need for your well. https://www.zoellerathome.com/en-na...well-pumps/submersible#product-specifications

EDIT: Measure the current in one hot wire to the pump when the pump is struggling, and when the pump is pumping better because the water level has recovered. That can give some clue about what you have down there now. A clamp-around ammeter is the best way to measure the current for this purpose. Also, how many amps is your breaker?

 

[Efrain]

If you are running new wires down the well, you could go to a 3-wire pump.

what are main advantages/disadvantages of a 3 wire vs a 2 wire. it would be a lot more work that i really dont want to do but may do it if its better.

Whatever pump you put in, a flow inducer shroud on the pump is good in your 6 inch casing.

do they offer these premade or would i have to create something out of a PVC or something?

EDIT: Measure the current in one hot wire to the pump when the pump is struggling, and when the pump is pumping better because the water level has recovered. That can give some clue about what you have down there now. A clamp-around ammeter is the best way to measure the current for this purpose.

that is a good idea!!! i will do it as soon as i get home today... although depending on how fast my well is recovering it might no longer be accurate.

Such as 7GS15422C - Goulds Pumps GS Submersible Well Pump

Ouch, i thought the ones at the home improvement stores were expensive ...these must be the ferarris of pumps.
is the price difference worth it ? its just me and my wife in the house, no kids.... and we would only have family over maybe 2 -3 times a year.

I have seen alot of good reviews on RedLion, and Flotec, and HallMark industries pumps..... what are your thoughts on those?

 

[Reach4]

what are main advantages/disadvantages of a 3 wire vs a 2 wire. it would be a lot more work that i really dont want to do but may do it if its better.

More power-efficient, and the availability of higher horsepower.

Ouch, i thought the ones at the home improvement stores were expensive ...these must be the ferarris of pumps.
is the price difference worth it ? its just me and my wife in the house, no kids.... and we would only have family over maybe 2 -3 times a year.

Besides other differences, they tend to only sell the 10 and 16 and 25 gpm pumps with fewer stages. You can tell that when you see a pump identified by horsepower and a feet number, those tend to not be pumps that would be good for a deep well. They may specify feet at which the pump can pump under 1 gpm. Its like an air compressor rated 250 psi but no CFM or SCFM rating.

Now you can overcome not having the right number of stages with more horsepower sometimes, but the pump will need bigger wires than one that is better matched to work deeper. If you only want to pump from 50 ft or 100 ft or so, they may be fine.

If a flow inducer sleeve is premade, it will be a lot more expensive. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/is-a-flow-inducer-on-4-pump-really-needed-with-large-holding-tank.81907/#post-591509 shows a good construction technique. There are other good methods.

The solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe (usually green) is very good.
solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056
Schedule 40: OD 4.500 ID 4.026