Franklin C1 cistern pump mated with CSV?

[CenterTree]

New low yield well that will pump into a 200gal poly tank located in basement. The well pump will be monitored via a CYCLE SENSOR unit and float switch in tank.

We currently have a 7 year old WAYNE jet pump that is used off an old outdoor cistern. (regular pressure tank setup). This will be deleted as soon as we get the new well up and running.
I want to do away with the JET pump and just stick the FRANKLIN C1 in the poly tank. The jet pump is VERY loud (and a tad old now).

So we also want to be able to obtain the constant pressure that the CSV offers. Would most likely just do the whole PSIDE Kick setup too.

My main question is: Will this "cistern-specific" FRANKLIN C1 work with the CSV seamlessly enough? I am not sure if this pump will provide enough PSI for the CSV. Would like to go at 40-60. (50 on CSV).
https://www.rainbrothers.com/store/...mersible-Cistern-Pump-115v-or-230v-p281493382

Any feed back on this C1 pump is appreciated.

The house is just one story and ONE bath/ 2 bedroom, family of 3. Very little irrigation, just basic usage.
Have 5000 watt generator for power outages.

I was looking at installing the Grundfos SQ (3") in the tank, but then came across the FRANKLIN C1. (half the price). The Franklin is nice as it has the bottom suction and would need no flow sleeve built around it.

Also saw this...https://www.rainbrothers.com/store/...n-Pump-Alternative-to-Grundfos-SBA-p281493565
Claims it doesn't need a pressure tank or external pressure switch and I completely do not understand how THAT would even work.

So, FRANKLIN C1, Grundfos SQ, or the Strom?


THANKS!

 

[Reach4]

I am not sure if this pump will provide enough PSI for the CSV. Would like to go at 40-60. (50 on CSV).

https://franklinwater.com/media/330116/m1698_c1_series_spec_sheet.pdf
I can confirm that the pump curves on the 10-gpm versions say that it should work fine with a CSV at the pressures you describe.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/setting-up-low-flow-well-cistern-house.61658/

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

Sure a CSV will work with that pump. But I would get a better pump. Those bottom suction type pumps are made to be easy to install, because you will need to install a new one every year or two. To make the bottom suction they sacrifice using a smaller diameter motor and smaller bearings. You would be much better off with a regular water well submersible with a flow inducer sleeve. Even the $140 Hallmark, in the 1HP, 33 GPM will make a better cistern pump than what they are calling a cistern pump. Lol!

 

[CenterTree]

Sure a CSV will work with that pump. But I would get a better pump. Those bottom suction type pumps are made to be easy to install, because you will need to install a new one every year or two. To make the bottom suction they sacrifice using a smaller diameter motor and smaller bearings. You would be much better off with a regular water well submersible with a flow inducer sleeve. Even the $140 Hallmark, in the 1HP, 33 GPM will make a better cistern pump than what they are calling a cistern pump. Lol!

Okay, good to know about the short life of the cistern pumps....

I looked at the Hallmark online and considered it due to price, but then I saw this video.

I fear for lack of quality in the VERY cheap pumps.

So,
I may just buck up and get myself the $$$ GRUNDFOS SQ in 1/2 HP. ( I think that is the proper size). Should last a good long time, especially with the CSV/PSIDE Kick.

Are the Grundfos 3" models a really good pump?

I could really use some help choosing the proper size pump.
https://www.pumpproducts.com/blog/grundfos-sq-series-well-pumps-buyers-guide/
The SQ comes in a lot of sizes.

* I know I need ONLY 1/2HP
* I know I have to have 115V version.
* And I know I should have either the 5GPM or maybe the 10GPM pump. ??? How do I know which?

But, what about the choice of "MAX. HEAD"?
In a small cistern tank, do I just go with the lowest "HEAD" rating? Is there an advantage to go higher? Does it hurt?

THANKS!

 

[Reach4]

I may just buck up and get myself the $$$ GRUNDFOS SQ in 1/2 HP.

Whatever submersible you use, you would want a flow inducer. Here are some unpolished notes I made regarding choice of material:

Notes for flow inducer sleeve/shroud for 3-inch SQ pump (OD=3.9 inch)

pvc solid sched 40 is 3.5 od and 3.042 ID. Schedule 40 solid and foamcore actually have the same dimensions.
ASTM 2949 appears to be 3.25 OD, and Fernco seems to call it thinwall.
https://www.napcopipe.com/sites/default/files/media/PL-PS-005-US-EN-0119.2_D2949.pdf
pvc solid sched 30 od:3.25 ID: 3.00 min wall 0.125 ("thin wall")
D2729 Charlotte part PVC 30030 od:3.25 min wall 0.070
https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...7401-c-8571.htm?tid=401413375234798191&ipos=3
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/plumbing/pipe/corrugated-and-drain-pipe/45397
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Genova-3-in-x-10-ft-Sch-30-Solidcore-PVC-DWV-Pipe/3449544
https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...-schedule-30/pvc093000600/p-1444426397401.htm
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JM-eagle-3-in-x-10-ft-PVC-Schedule-30-Plain-End-Pipe-57851/202280942

 

[Valveman]

1/2HP, 10 GPM is best for a cistern and a shallow well. 5 GPM pump is made for a deep well. The 4" Grundfos is best but the 3" SQ is also pretty good. Been using the 4" white PVC drain pipe to make flow inducers lately. Even the brand name pumps will have one bad right out of the box sometimes.

 

[Reach4]

1/HP, 10 GPM is best for a cistern and a shallow well. 5 GPM pump is made for a deep well. The 4" Grundfos is best but the 3" SQ is also pretty good. Been using the 4" white PVC drain pipe to make flow inducers lately. Even the brand name pumps will have one bad right out of the box sometimes.

The 10SQ05-160-115V would supply a big house or a house with an iron filter than needs even a 12 gpm backwash.

The 5SQ05-110 or 10SQ05-110 would work, but not for somebody who want to use a 40/60 pressure switch.

 

[Valveman]

Okay, good to know about the short life of the cistern pumps....

I looked at the Hallmark on Amazon and considered it due to price, but then I saw this video.

I fear for lack of quality in the VERY cheap pumps.

So,
I may just buck up and get myself the $$$ GRUNDFOS SQ in 1/2 HP. ( I think that is the proper size). Should last a good long time, especially with the CSV/PSIDE Kick.

Are the Grundfos 3" models a really good pump?

I could really use some help choosing the proper size pump.
https://www.pumpproducts.com/blog/grundfos-sq-series-well-pumps-buyers-guide/
The SQ comes in a lot of sizes.

* I know I need ONLY 1/2HP
* I know I have to have 115V version.
* And I know I should have either the 5GPM or maybe the 10GPM pump. ??? How do I know which?

But, what about the choice of "MAX. HEAD"?
In a small cistern tank, do I just go with the lowest "HEAD" rating? Is there an advantage to go higher? Does it hurt?

THANKS!

Just wasted 23 minutes watching that video. He actually did a pretty good test, but came to the wrong conclusion. Looking at the amps at max pressure would have said more about the quality of the pumps than anything, but he never checked. Castings look as good as any brand name pump, and a pin hole is not uncommon in any brand. 3" pump is not better than the 4", it is just designed for higher head and less volume. Water is going to get hot when you circulate it over and over, but not in a well getting cool water inflow all the time. I agree the 4" should not be installed with a water level deeper than 30'-40', but that is perfect for a cistern pump. For the price that video just strengthened my opinion of both pumps.

 

[CenterTree]

1/HP, 10 GPM is best for a cistern and a shallow well. 5 GPM pump is made for a deep well. The 4" Grundfos is best but the 3" SQ is also pretty good. Been using the 4" white PVC drain pipe to make flow inducers lately. Even the brand name pumps will have one bad right out of the box sometimes.

Ok, but I never thought I would need 1HP drawing from a cistern.

Hallmark makes a 115V, 1HP, but it is 33GPM. Too much?
And some of the smaller Hallmarks are 4" diameter and will only fit in a 5" casing. (so I would need 6" PVC to make a shroud?)
Some are 3.8" to fit a 4" PVC though.
https://www.hallmarkind.com/catalogs/Deep_well_pumps.pdf

Still confused on HP needs.

Is this a proper formula? 60 PSI x 2.307 + HEAD = Head MAX.

How do I figure/measure my "HEAD" for an atmospheric cistern/tank?
http://thepumpdoc.com/2018/02/08/which-pump-should-i-put-in-my-deep-well/

 

[Valveman]

As that video showed but he didn't realize what was happening, that pump will do 33 GPM wide open with no pressure and 1 GPM at 86 PSI. 89 PSI is the same as 207' of head and the point where that pump will do zero flow. It can't do 33 GPM with pressure. But yeah it is more pump than you need. Even the 10GPM, 1/2HP is more pump than you need. That is the reason for a Cycle Stop Valve. Since the CSV will make any pump do whatever you want, you can use just about any pump you want. The pump being within the parameters of the CSV is all that matters, and either of those pumps are.

 

[Reach4]

And some of the smaller Hallmarks are 4" diameter and will only fit in a 5" casing. (so I would need 6" PVC to make a shroud?)

solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056 ( white or green) may or may not be big enough. I don't know what the size of that pump is, but a 5 inch pipe would be too big to do the job IMO.

 

[CenterTree]

solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe: OD 4.215 ID 4.056 ( white or green) may or may not be big enough. I don't know what the size of that pump is, but a 5 inch pipe would be too big to do the job IMO.

So in regards to the shroud specifics,,, is there a certain space (distance) that is "required" around the pump?
Can the space be too large? Can it be too tight/small?

I figure the shroud is just to mimic a well casing and I know they put 3" pumps in a 4" casing. And they put 4" pumps in a 4" casing. Right?

I can understand if the space is too large around the pump then it may act as if there is basically no shroud at all, but if the pump is too close to the wall of the shroud, then there is a risk of getting no good flow over the motor/pump? How close is too close?
Is there a science to this or am I over thinking it?

THANKS!

 

[Reach4]

So in regards to the shroud specifics,,, is there a certain space (distance) that is "required" around the pump?
Can the space be too large? Can it be too tight/small?

I figure the shroud is just to mimic a well casing and I know they put 3" pumps in a 4" casing. And they put 4" pumps in a 4" casing. Right?

I can understand if the space is too large around the pump then it may act as if there is basically no shroud at all, but if the pump is too close to the wall of the shroud, then there is a risk of getting no good flow over the motor/pump? How close is too close?
Is there a science to this or am I over thinking it?

My thoughts on this-- I am not a pro.

You would want the ((shroud/sleeve cross sectional area) - (cross sectional area of the pump)) > the cross sectional area of the drop pipe. That difference could be called the annular space. I posted some sample numbers in https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/flow-inducer-sleeve.95740/ Having the annular space too large does not help the cooling water to be outside of the motor as much. I think this cooling is the main reason usually.

If a pump is top feeding, with water coming in from above the pump, the flow inducer causes the water to flow past the motor for cooling, where it would not have otherwise. A bottom feeding pump, with the bulk of the water coming from below, would not gain from that aspect.

If the well is not cased all of the way, sand or other sediment can break off of the bore. With the flow inducer, the falling sand will proceed outside of the flow inducer. The water velocity will be lower in the sleeve below the water, so the sediment can likely proceed down rather than get sucked in. If this is a major reason for the flow inducer, you can make the flow inducer extend lower.

If the uncased bore near the intake is sandstone or shale, I can envision the turbulence at the intake to break off sediment that might have stayed put. This is probably not common, but the flow inducer would guard against that.

 

[Valveman]

Flow inducer fit pretty snug. A 1/4" of space is all you need to get the flow required. The motors are usually 3.5" and the cable guard doesn't make any difference as it is on the pump and higher than the flow inducer needs to be.

 

[CenterTree]

Flow inducer fit pretty snug. A 1/4" of space is all you need to get the flow required. The motors are usually 3.5" and the cable guard doesn't make any difference as it is on the pump and higher than the flow inducer needs to be.

OK good info.

Just ordered the GRUNDFOS SQ 10SQ05-160. Didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling from the reviews on the Hallmarks, mainly due to rust issues.


Gonna order the PSide Kick next.

I will have to set the pump vertically as the tank is only 32" diameter. Sucks because I will be loosing about 18" of access to the tank's bottom water since the pump draws in at that height.

Anyway,
So with a DIY flow sleeve of 4" PVC ( on a 3" Grundfos SQ) is that TOO MUCH space around the pump?

And I would think the pump needs to be elevated somehow off the bottom of the tank? Would I just suspend the pump using the 1" PVC piping from the top of the tank in some manner? If so, how far off the bottom of the tank need it be?

 

[Reach4]

I will have to set the pump vertically as the tank is only 32" diameter. Sucks because I will be loosing about 18" of access to the tank's bottom water since the pump draws in at that height.

I wonder if you could make a flow inducer that is water-tight above the intake? Something would have to initially get the air out, and I don't know if there is a danger that air could accumulate under the the sleeve. I would think the pump running with some water would suck out any accumulated air.

Anyway, the intent would be to effectively lower the suction place to be low the water level.

You can tilt the pump to anywhere between vertical and horizontal.

 

[Valveman]

The 4" flow inducer is fine. Hang the pump from the drop pipe and keep it a couple inches off bottom. I agree the cast iron will rust, but it shows they are available with a Stainless Steel discharge?

 

[Reach4]

I can understand if the space is too large around the pump then it may act as if there is basically no shroud at all, but if the pump is too close to the wall of the shroud, then there is a risk of getting no good flow over the motor/pump? How close is too close?
Is there a science to this or am I over thinking it?

I would use 3 inch pipe. The SQ pumps are designed to be able to put into schedule 40 3-inch, as well as bigger casings. When you get your SQ pump, how about measuring the motor and intake diameters. Nominal pump diameter is 2.9 inches. I suspect the actual diameter may be smaller, which would increase the annular space.

See dimensions in #5. I made a spreadsheet as I did for 4 inch in https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/flow-inducer-sleeve.95740/#post-688352

Revised with dimensions from
https://www.jmeagle.com/sites/default/files/Solvent_Weld_Sewer_and_Drain _one-page-slick_v1.pdf

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi.../3x10astm2729solid/p-1444438058975-c-8571.htm in white, but not in PA.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/3-in-x-10-ft-Sewer-Drain-Pipe-PVC-Sewer-Pipe/3133165 shows out of stock at stores, but delivery available.

Local plumbing place can probably get 3 inch solid d2729 or SDR35. Or maybe Ace is the place:
Charlotte Pipe PVC Sewer Main 3 in. D X 10 ft. L Bell 0 psi - Ace Hardware

HOWEVER, 3 inch schedule 40 is big enough ID. Grundfos recommends SQ pumps in 3 inch pvc casings.

 

[CenterTree]

....

You can tilt the pump to anywhere between vertical and horizontal.

Yeah, this came to mind. I will look at that option. Maybe a 45* elbow off the top of the pump would allow for a compromise between straight up vertical. Might help account for maybe 30 more gallons (several inches) accessible for use.


Now I am trying to figure out what PSI I want to order the CSV set to.
We have run the old JET pump/pressure tank at 30/50psi for years. Always said that if I could I would bump that number up when the time came.

Well the time has come, but how to I know what PSI to choose? Was thinking 40/60 would work nice, but would it hurt to go even more (50/70)?

Our new setup will include a SpinDown filter and a TRIPLE Big Blue 4x20" filters. So that may give a little pressure lose, to account for, but how much, I don't know.

I see that the CSV can be set to 45/65 as another option too.

How much is too much? How little is too little? And how to decide?

 

[Bannerman]

The CSV pressure setting will be mostly determined by the capability of the pump and the size of the pressure tank chosen.

Since you will be pumping from a cistern, there will not be much vertical lift so the submersible pump should be capable of exceeding 70 psi. If using the standard 4.5 gallon pressure tank, if it were me, I would use a 50/70 pressure switch so the CSV will provide 60 psi constant.