More CSV questions....

[cdherman]

OK, we have purchased a CSVS-1 50 psi, to be placed about 8 ft below soil surface, 3 feet below the pitless adaptor. The 1/2HP 240v pump is about 40' from soil surface, in a whopping 39" of flowing water. The well will pump around 12 gpm for about 60 minutes before whatever underground stream is depleted. Pumping at 4 gpm can be maintained indefinitely.

I am getting rid of the old set up with a 2 gallon pressure tank and pressure switch in the casing. We are moving to a pressure tank in the basement of the house, 150 ft away, and will relocate the pressure switch to there as well. The existing setup ALSO has a 60 gallon possible waterlogged pressure tank in an old well house, 150 ft in the OTHER direction. My intent is to abandon that as well.

My mother frequently trickle irrigates in the Summer at around 1/4 - 1/2 gpm. So a very small pressure tank could end up short cycling. Thus, went with a 20 gallon as a compromise as suggested by Valveman in a different thread.

The location is 270 miles away and hardware store does not have a good selection of parts. So I am trying to design and get pretty much every thing lined up in advance. I have a stainless tank T with union, and Boshart stainless 75 psi pressure relief and stainless boiler drain as well. The 1" valve after the assembly is also stainless. I will put the pressure switch on a 3" riser as I see being done frequently. I assume to lessen the risk of debris getting into the pressure switch.

Here are my specific questions :

-- I want to put a new pressure switch in while I am at it. Current switch is 30/50. Should I go new 30/50 and adjust up the high cutout, as needed for the 50 psi CSV, or can I just get a 40/60? Any recommendations for the absolute best pressure switch? The basement in a nice dry environment, so its probably overkill, but I want this to be overwith for a very long time.

-- I note that some installations call for glyerine filled pressure gauges. I bought a Boshart PGS25-100 This is NOT liquid filled, but its stainless, and its the higher accuracy line that they offer. The basement is nice and dry and there will be little vibration, since the pump is far away. Think I am OK? Got a better suggestion?

-- I only have the check valve that is built in to the pump. I have a stainless Boshart CVSS-125 coming. I would like to install it with a minimum of cuts to the black plastic 1-1/4 pipe. I assume its best to get a stainless 1-1/4 threaded nipple and directly thread the check valve to the top of the pump. Or should I cut the pipe and use stainless hose barbs to splice and place the check valve higher? Or can I thread it to the bottom of the CSV? I will have to cut the pipe to install the CSV. I have the extended length stainless barbs to do this allowing 3 clamp (overkill, I know). And some fancy "super clamps" that use bolts instead of the spiral screw like a typical band clamp.

-- ?? Flow inducer. The bottom of the pump is a mere 2-3 inches above the mud/rock at the bottom. A flow inducer would allow us to pump the well down even further before we suck air. BUT, that would also mean that the flow is always coming from the very bottom of the well. I worry about ending up with more sediment sucked into the system? Anyone want to comment on this. The water currently is quite clean, hard of course, but no sand or sediment. Might be better, though more expensive, to install a cycle sensor. Or both? Currently planning to defer the cycle sensor, as it can be added later. Perhaps the CVS and pressure tank/switch relocation is enough to fix the problems.

Thank you all!!!

 

[Bannerman]

Assuming the garden(s) to be irrigated at 0.25-0.5 gpm is located a reasonably close distance to the house, have you considered obtaining the irrigation supply directly from the house? This would then permit the CSV to be located in the basement along with the pressure tank and PS.

The CSV PK1A Pside Kit (shown here) will provide various fittings needed for installation, plus wall mount brackets, a pressure relief valve, new pressure switch & gauge, and typically a 4.5 or 10-gallon pressure tank. Since Valveman recommended a 20-gallon tank (~5 gallons draw-down capacity), perhaps his company could replace the standard pressure tank with a 20-gallon version at a reasonable cost, within the PK1A purchase.

While an interior mounted CSV will usually not require the Pitless adaptor to be uncoupled to pull-up the drop-pipe, thereby simplifying installation, unfortunately, removal of the 2 gallon casing mounted PT & PS continue to complicate the situation.

1) The pressure switch setting range is usually 40/60 for a CSV calibrated for 50 psi continuous. Because you are planning to utilize a larger pressure tank than normally needed, that may permit the CSV pressure to be increased somewhat, possibly to 55 psi, thereby resulting in the pump continuing to run for only ~1.25 minutes after water consumption has stopped, to cause the remaining 1.25 gallon tank capacity to be refilled to 60 psi. With the CSV set to 50 psi, then the pump will continue to run for approx. 2.5 minutes, to refill the remaining 2.5 gallons tank capacity.

2) Glycerin filled will dampen vibrations which cause the gauge needle to flutter and result in rapid wear. Because your gauge location will experience no vibrations, a standard, non dampened gauge will be appropriate and less expensive.

3) A second check valve maybe utilized for redundancy, but will need to be located as close to the pump's internal check valve as possible. Use a short threaded nipple to thread the 2nd check valve directly to the pump's outlet fitting.

4) Because the electric motor is most commonly located at the bottom of a submersible well pump, some distance below the pump's water inlet screen, the electric motor will receive little cooling flow when the water enters the casing above the pump and is drawn directly into the inlet screen. The flow inducer shroud, will force the water flowing downward from above, to flow past the outside of the shroud, to enter below the pump's motor to flow upward into the inlet screen. This will ensure the motor will be cooled while the pump is operating and supplying water, regardless of the duration of operation.

A Cycle Sensor is an electronic control which will sense when the pump's motor is consuming significantly less than the usual amount of power, thereby signifying it has started to suck air. The CS will then shut off power to the pump to prevent it from over heating. A CS maybe programmed to automatically restore power after a sufficient amount of time to allow the well to recover, with the reset time being easily adjusted by the user.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[cdherman]

In my case, the CSVS125-1 is the version that is not adjustable and is located in the well, below the pitless adaptor. That is a fixed situation as there are perhaps 6 various frost free hydrants scattered across several acres of buildings., all proximal to the house and basement where the pressure switch and tank will soon reside. Valveman has provided diagrams. But I can vary the pressure switch pressure cut in and cut off in the house.

Thus again -- for a 50 psi fixed CSV, can I just go with a 40/60 pressure switch? I am pretty sure I know the answer is yes, but just askin'. And is there a "best" one out there?

Appreciate the appraisal that I can just thread the check valve onto the top of the pump via a nipple. I am pretty sure that the existing pipe barbs may be brass, or worse, steel. I am trying to arrive at the site with a lot of redundant parts for contingencies. I do NOT know what pump is down there. A consideration is to replace the pump as well, but its only 40' down and once the crazy menagerie of pressure switch and tiny tank are removed from the casing, its not that hard to pull the pump down the road.

Thanks!!

 

[Reach4]

OK, we have purchased a CSVS-1 50 psi, to be placed about 8 ft below soil surface,

With the CSV about 10 ft below the pressure switch, expect the pressure to usually be about 46 PSI at the pressure switch while the pump is running. You could turn a 30/50 switch up to about 35/55, or turn a 40/60 switch down to that level.

Common Pumptrol switches raise and lower the pressures about 10 psi for each 3.5 turns of the nut on the big spring by 3.5 turns. So you might turn the nut 1.75 turns CW to raise the pressure, and CCW to lower the pressure.

Normally you don't want to adjust the nut on the small spring.

 

[Fitter30]

By burying CSVS-1check with the manufacturer think it uses air pressure for the reg plus the top of the reg is probably steel rust through in no time see if a magnet sticks. Stainless fittings have to be tighten in a specific way with using nickel teflon tape with anaerobic pipe sealant. When tighten fitting turning starts to get harder stop wait a 10 second tighten some more gets hard stop again do that same procedure till tight. Stainless gets hot expands and by forcing it just gets hotter. Cools and might not seal.

 

[Valveman]

In my case, the CSVS125-1 is the version that is not adjustable and is located in the well, below the pitless adaptor. That is a fixed situation as there are perhaps 6 various frost free hydrants scattered across several acres of buildings., all proximal to the house and basement where the pressure switch and tank will soon reside. Valveman has provided diagrams. But I can vary the pressure switch pressure cut in and cut off in the house.

Thus again -- for a 50 psi fixed CSV, can I just go with a 40/60 pressure switch? I am pretty sure I know the answer is yes, but just askin'. And is there a "best" one out there?

Appreciate the appraisal that I can just thread the check valve onto the top of the pump via a nipple. I am pretty sure that the existing pipe barbs may be brass, or worse, steel. I am trying to arrive at the site with a lot of redundant parts for contingencies. I do NOT know what pump is down there. A consideration is to replace the pump as well, but its only 40' down and once the crazy menagerie of pressure switch and tiny tank are removed from the casing, its not that hard to pull the pump down the road.

Thanks!!

As Reach said, installed 10' below surface the 50 PSI CSV will deliver about 46 PSI at the house. How much higher you set the pressure switch to shut the pump off depends on the size of the pressure tank. 40/60 would be perfect with the little 4.5 gallon size tank. But filling to 60 with a larger tank will take longer. It won't hurt a thing to run a long time to fill a big tank, but we only need a minute or two. With a larger tank just loosen the large adjustment in the pressure switch after the CSV has been filling the tank at 1 GPM for about 2 minutes. This way you get a 2 minute run time with any size tank.

 

[cdherman]

I was at the site yesterday and today. We can rewire the wiring to allow the pressure tank to be in the basement of the house, some 150 ft from the well and a touch higher. The wiring is a mess there, with 50+ years of underground running here and there, but in the end, I rewired things to allow the pressure switch to live in the basement. My first test is to see this wiring work for a few weeks -- otherwise, we need to trench a new line to the well. I stole a circuit used from the house for a Mercury light, and wired that to the well circuit. So the well is now running from the house. Need to test that setup for a bit before I dive in.

Appreciate the inputs. Still no one wants to tell me how "low" to place a flow inducer in a very shallow but quick regenerating well. I suppose our situation is rather rare. I think I will put the flow inducer around 3" above the bottom of the pump. The bottom of the pump is right at 3" off the bottom of the well. So the flow would be potentially from the bottom 6" of water in the well. Bare in mind, this is a flowing stream of water.

I have a camera as well. I plan to do this and see how long we can sustain the 12 gpm from the 1/2 HP pump and just where the water is coming from. We might also get mud and debris and decide that 12 gpm is not worth the mess.

But sure would be nice to get a sustained 12 gpm, as it would save the trouble of installing a cycle stop sensor. Those sound nice, but simplicity is key AND, this is an area where lightning happens with regularity. I really want to do this once and fix stuff so that my 80+ parents can spend the last good days at home not worrying about the water supply.

Anyhow, thanks again for the assistance.....

 

[Valveman]

The flow inducer needs to be flush with the bottom of the motor or extended and inch or so below the motor. Do not make the flow inducer shorter than the bottom of the motor or the dirt will fill in around the bottom of the motor and get the bearing hot. You can set it about 3" above the bottom of the well. The flow inducer will help to keep the well from filling in around the motor. If the dirt fills in it may get within an inch or so from the flow inducer. If it fills in all the way to the flow inducer you will know because the flow will be restricted. I have even deepened wells before by dabbing the flow inducer into the sand and letting the pump have a minute to pump it out. Also, need to make sure and tape the top of the flow inducer as best as possible. Need to seal the top to make it draw from the bottom, which will let you access a foot or so more water from the well.

The CSV will also help reduce the sand as the pump will never pump 12 GPM unless you use that much water. The CSV makes the pumps output match the input, so the flow from the well may never exceed like 5 GPM. Also, when the CSV is making the pump draw a steady 5 GPM from the well it is not stirred up like when the pump is cycling on/off pumping 12 GPM and then nothing as water comes from the tank to produce the 5 GPM being used.

 

[cdherman]

Currently, the base of the pump is only inches over the mud at the bottom. Valveman makes sense. I think I will pull the bottom of the pump up a couple inches and extend the flow inducer to the bottom of the pump, so that we can avoid clay/silt and at the same time, get all the water this well can produce. As noted many times, it is a flowing stream.

The system has never needed filters. If we start to see sediment in the water, we can pull it up an inch bit by bit till that is not an issue. It would be really nice to get to the max capacity of a 1/2 HP pump running full time with no air and no silt. (sand seems to be a common phase, but that is non-existent there)

 

[Fitter30]

Pump Sleeves

www.tuhorse.us

 

[cdherman]

Pump Sleeves

www.tuhorse.us

Interesting link. Some of the tabular data about diameters of casing are interesting. I think our situation of flowing water and no sand make *some* of the arguments for a flow inducer/pump sleeve moot. I suspect that we have problems due to short cycling or drawing air, as opposed to inadequate water flow over the motor.

BUT, in my mind, the stream of water that we are pumping from may have adequate flow for 12 gpm, but at a lower level in the well. So a pump sleeve sounds like a decent idea.

I have procured some 5" PVC and a 4">>5" boot and the next time we pull the pump, we will raise the height of the bottom of the pump by say 2" (we are dealing with such a narrow bandwidth) and align the flow inducer to the bottom of the pump, as suggested by Valveman. I actually think this well has quite LOW amounts of accumulating sediment and no sand, but his comments about mud gathering around the base of the pump seem legit and from experience.

Then, I think we lead off with running full bore 12 gpm from the adjacent frost free hydrant with a camera in the casing to see what is happening. That will allow any initial sediment to blow out locally (not in the pressure tank/switch/ rest of system). If it stirs up sediment. I've got a couple hundred in the camera already -- may as well use it.

Again, thanks to all for your input.

 

[Reach4]

I would go with 4-inch PVC. The annular space between the "4 inch pump" and 4 inch PVC is plenty.

 

[cdherman]

I would go with 4-inch PVC. The annular space between the "4 inch pump" and 4 inch PVC is plenty.

Is there are reason to NOT do the 5"? I have the 5" pipe (it can be done for $20 for a piece via Amazon) and the adaptor I got locally, in KC. I have visions of the 4" having issues with vibrations or harmonics since it is so close to the pump. I already have the 5" stuff.

 

[Bannerman]

Is there are reason to NOT do the 5"?

The main purpose for using a flow inducer, is to make sure water will be drawn from below the pump, over the pump's motor to ensure optimal cooling while it is operating.

By using a 4" inducer, insures the water drawn upward into the pump's inlet screen, will pass as close as possible to the motor, thereby resulting in the most rapid speed and efficiency of heat removal.

By using a larger diameter pipe such as 5", the amount of space for water to flow up to the pump's inlet will be increased, so most of that flow will be less rapid and further away from the motor, thereby potentially reducing the amount of heat that maybe drawn away from the motor.

 

[Valveman]

Also, when trying to keep sand out of the well, velocity as in feet per second is important. The velocity between the pump and 4" flow inducer will be much higher than in 5" pipe. The tight fit is a good thing. I have also never seen one of those heads that make a tight fit on top, and I manufacture flow inducer heads of many sizes. However, with 4" pumps I do not use a head. With three pie shape wedges cut from the top of the 4" thin wall pipe, a hose clamp draws them together to make a pretty tight seal. When wrapped over with electric tape, very little water will come in from the top. The pie shape wedges can actually fit over the three straps on a Grundfos pump and seals fairly well. The hard part is sealing around the cable guard. If you have the time, you can silicone over the gaps and let it dry before taping over that, which will give an almost 100% seal. However, it is almost impossible to seal a flow inducer completely. Even using tape as best as you can there will be some water come from the top of the flow inducer, which is OK.