Flooring guy needs a little help with Toilet / Flange?

[Stingerrray]

Hi Folks, Sorry to be asking a question on my first post. I have removed and reset maybe 100 toilets in my 6 years of being in the flooring business. I hate to do it as we are not plumbers. That being said it is common place for installers in my area to do so. Most are 4" flange set in concrete for downstairs and the same for upstairs.

Today I did an install and removed the downstairs 1/2 bath Toilet and surrounding Linoleum. The floor was soaked underneath the Linoleum. The toilet had been leaking for quite sometime. I didnt measure the flange as the realization of what was likey wrong did not come to me till later. I think the problem was that the flange is 3" and appears to be some sort of metal and does not match up to the toilet due to the fact that the bottom of the toilet is to wide to fit in the flange. Also under the linoleum was some sort of leveling material to raise the linoleum above the flange. When we cleaned up the flange installed new bolts and wax ring the toilet is sitting about 1/2" above the floor in the back.

Is it possible that a new toilet will fix this issue. The homeowner does not want to spend the money for the new toilet. It would be great if anyone can point me in the right direction. Also the flange is about 1/8" above the vinyl plank flooring that we installed. Gonna attach a couple of pictures of the flange.

Thanks in advance,
Rob

 

[Reach4]

appears to be some sort of metal

It looks like cast iron.

I didnt measure the flange as the realization of what was likey wrong did not come to me till later. I think the problem was that the flange is 3" and appears to be some sort of metal and does not match up to the toilet due to the fact that the bottom of the toilet is to wide to fit in the flange. Also under the linoleum was some sort of leveling material to raise the linoleum above the flange.

How far above the level of the new toilet is the top of the toilet flange. If more than 1/2 inch, then that is not going to work with a normal install. I don't think a new toilet would help much with that.

You could switch to thicker flooring, but probably too late for that. There are things called a toilet base plates that could serve as a spacer.

You could use high shims. That is unusual, but you have an unusual problem. Place the shims and check the fit before setting the wax down. Lift the toilet and place the wax. Then lower the toilet under the wax.

I am not a plumber.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Stingerrray]

It looks like cast iron.


How far above the level of the new toilet is the top of the toilet flange. If more than 1/2 inch, then that is not going to work with a normal install. I don't think a new toilet would help much with that.

You could switch to thicker flooring, but probably too late for that. There are things called a toilet base plates that could serve as a spacer.

You could use high shims. That is unusual, but you have an unusual problem. Place the shims and check the fit before setting the wax down. Lift the toilet and place the wax. Then lower the toilet under the wax.

I am not a plumber.

The Flange is about 1/8" above the new flooring. When you seat the toilet it is around 1/2 inch above the flooring.

Regards,
Rob

 

[Reach4]

The Flange is about 1/8" above the new flooring. When you seat the toilet it is around 1/2 inch above the flooring.

In that case, a new toilet should fix that. Flange is about 7 inch diameter OD? That is normal. A normal toilet should fit over that fine.

Measure from the wall to center of the closet flange. That dimension is the "rough in". 12 inches for that is most common, but 10 inch toilets are available. Your distance looks short.

 

[Stingerrray]

In that case, a new toilet should fix that. Flange is about 7 inch diameter OD? That is normal. A normal toilet should fit over that fine.

Measure from the wall to center of the closet flange. That dimension is the "rough in". 12 inches for that is most common, but 10 inch toilets are available. Your distance looks short.

The outside edges of the toilet clear the flange. In the center of the toilet bottom drain their is a flange on the bottom toilet that looks to be to wide to drop down in the flange opening and seems to be resting on the flange itself. Is it possible its wider to fit a 4" flange. The rough in size is fine on the present toilet. Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Rob

 

[Jadnashua]

Toilets and their flanges are designed for the flange to fit over the finished floor, and be anchored through it into the substrate. There are millions of toilets that aren't installed that way. The plumber and contractor often want the plumbing in before the finished flooring is installed, so, since the thickness of the flooring can vary, it's hard to get the flange exactly where it should be by design. It usually can work.

You need to clean off the flange well. Depending on where it is relative to the top of the finished flooring, a standard wax ring may work, or it may take two stacked, or one 'jumbo' wax ring. Terry has a sticky at the top of this section on how to install a toilet...that should help.

If the slots are intact to hold new anchor bolts (use solid brass ones, not plated steel), this will probably work. If they're not, then you may need to install a repair ring that is anchored into the concrete to provide the needed anchors for the toilet.

As long as the toilet fits on the flange and the base of the toilet can sit flat on the floor, it should not leak when installed properly. The key to using wax is that the toilet cannot rock once it's installed. That often will require some carefully placed shims. The wax is not springy, so if it rocks, it will compress the wax, and when it rocks back, potentially leave a gap that can leak.

The bigger issues are if the horn on the toilet is excessively large and doesn't fit into the hole in the flange, or the flange is too high, and prevents the toilet from sitting flat on the floor, or, the flange itself is cocked, or the slots for the bolts are broken or corroded away.

FWIW, the drain line looks pretty messy...while you have the toilet off, a good snaking may be useful to clean off some of the crud before setting the toilet.

 

[Stingerrray]

Toilets and their flanges are designed for the flange to fit over the finished floor, and be anchored through it into the substrate. There are millions of toilets that aren't installed that way. The plumber and contractor often want the plumbing in before the finished flooring is installed, so, since the thickness of the flooring can vary, it's hard to get the flange exactly where it should be by design. It usually can work.

You need to clean off the flange well. Depending on where it is relative to the top of the finished flooring, a standard wax ring may work, or it may take two stacked, or one 'jumbo' wax ring. Terry has a sticky at the top of this section on how to install a toilet...that should help.

If the slots are intact to hold new anchor bolts (use solid brass ones, not plated steel), this will probably work. If they're not, then you may need to install a repair ring that is anchored into the concrete to provide the needed anchors for the toilet.

As long as the toilet fits on the flange and the base of the toilet can sit flat on the floor, it should not leak when installed properly. The key to using wax is that the toilet cannot rock once it's installed. That often will require some carefully placed shims. The wax is not springy, so if it rocks, it will compress the wax, and when it rocks back, potentially leave a gap that can leak.

The bigger issues are if the horn on the toilet is excessively large and doesn't fit into the hole in the flange, or the flange is too high, and prevents the toilet from sitting flat on the floor, or, the flange itself is cocked, or the slots for the bolts are broken or corroded away.

FWIW, the drain line looks pretty messy...while you have the toilet off, a good snaking may be useful to clean off some of the crud before setting the toilet.

So, I think you hit the nail on the head. The horn which I didnt know that was the name till just now is bigger than the opening on the flange. I cant recall the brand but the horn is too big. Is the horn size available on modern toilets (Spec sheets) and do they vary much?

Regards,
Rob

 

[Jadnashua]

If the flange is high, the horn may not fit, but all 'normal' toilets should fit on a 3 or 4" drain pipe with a modern flange installed in the proper position. Some cast iron flanges may sit higher than ideal, and if they're on say a 4" drain line, may impact the outer section of the toilet, but not usually the horn. The well that holds the wax may be too shallow, and the curvature can impact the well in the bottom of the toilet.

 

[Stingerrray]

If the flange is high, the horn may not fit, but all 'normal' toilets should fit on a 3 or 4" drain pipe with a modern flange installed in the proper position. Some cast iron flanges may sit higher than ideal, and if they're on say a 4" drain line, may impact the outer section of the toilet, but not usually the horn. The well that holds the wax may be too shallow, and the curvature can impact the well in the bottom of the toilet.

Thanks for your help, Again the flange is 1/8" above the floor. The flange is likely the original to the house from 1970. The horn sits on top of the flange instead inside the flange. I will take a couple of more pics tomorrow with measurements. As far as cleaning the drain or replacing the flange I'm not a Plumber and my insurance does not cover but the most basic of plumbing work. Also the home owner is a doctor and a tight ass I mean this guy is cheap, really cheap. He didn't want to pay me till the toilet was finished even though I told him we don't normally seat toilets. I'm good at what we do which is laying floor. I'm always eager to learn from anyone that can help me grow. Thanks again for your help!

Regards,
Rob

 

[Reach4]

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ys-even-with-the-bottom-edge-of-toilet.64052/ may have some useful info.

 

[Terry]

You can't use a horn with that closet flange. It won't fit and it won't compress.
And when did flooring guys become toilet installers? It's two separate businesses.
Does your doctor do CPA work for customers and pull teeth? Or maybe just pulling your leg.
Perhaps he sees you as a general contractor that would sub out the plumbing.

I would not go to this doctor for anything. That toilet drain looks horrible. Doctor of what?
Philosophy?

 

[WorthFlorida]

I'm surprised the toilet does back up. All those rough edges can block waste and can result in poor flush performance.

 

[Jadnashua]

The horn on most toilets does not extend below the level of the base. It might be even with it, but most I've seen are recessed slightly. I wonder how much of the crud inside the pipe could be chipped, or cleaned off.

 

[Stingerrray]

You can't use a horn with that closet flange. It won't fit and it won't compress.
And when did flooring guys become toilet installers? It's two separate businesses.
Does your doctor do CPA work for customers and pull teeth? Or maybe just pulling your leg.
Perhaps he sees you as a general contractor that would sub out the plumbing.

I would not go to this doctor for anything. That toilet drain looks horrible. Doctor of what?
Philosophy?

Yes I get it and you are right. We should not be doing anything with toilets. The problem is that even the big box stores are removing and reinstalling toilets within their flooring quotes in florida. If you dont do it your bids will not be competitive. I hate it and always recommend that they go with a plumber. We make the customer connect the supply line and turn on the valve themselves. My insurance will not cover one red cent if we flood out a customers house. Again you are right. I told the customer today that he can keep his $50 and install his own toilet. Yes $50 thats the charge that Flooring cos in my area are charging for a toilet up and down.


Regards,
Rob

 

[FullySprinklered]

I would take my angle grinder with the diamond blade, and grind half an inch off the pucker hole on the bottom of the toilet. Sorry for getting too technical.