Ductless Mini Split Cooling Design

[Mage182]

I'm in the process of adding a second floor onto my 1954 cape and would like to add AC to the house via mini splits. The research I've done so far as well as the estimates I've received has left me with a design showing the following:

First unit (2 heads):

• Upstairs master bedroom (200sqft, 9' ceiling, heavy western facing PM sun) - 12000 BTU unit.
• Downstairs living room / kitchen area (300 sqft, heavy western facing PM sun) - 12000 BTU unit

Second Unit (3 heads):

• Upstairs bedroom (200sqft, southern exposure, heavy western facing PM sun) - 9000 BTU unit.
  
• Downstairs bedroom (80sqft, southern exposure) - 7000 BTU unit
• Downstairs bedroom (120sqft, southern exposure, heavy western facing PM sun) - 7000 BTU unit

A few friends have recommended Fujitsu so I've been looking at their models which have offerings that match the numbers above. They also make a 'flex' system that can handle up to 8 heads which wouldn't only require one outside unit. Are there pros and cons to each of these approaches?

Are there any other details worth looking into? I have looked at the min output for these units to make sure they are low enough to not bounce off the bottom and yet won't be under powered based on the online calculators I tried. Are there options other brands offer that should make me look at Mitsu, LG, Samsung?

 

[Standardairconditioner]

You don't need a 'head' for each room, just one will do, placed at the top of the stairway.

Heat from the first floor will be cooled as it makes its way to the 2nd floor, and the cold air from the evaporator will sink down to the first floor.

This is how most 12000-18000btu mini splits are installed in Canada, and summers in NY state isn't much hotter.

Ceiling fans make air conditioning work even better, as it helps with the hot-cold air convection.

Take advantage of getting a few salespeople to your home to give "quotes", at least they will tell you where to put the "head". I am certain you need just one. Your latitude and sqaure footage does not justify multiple units.

Don't be so carried away by the brand, mini-splits are already a poor man's AC. You may want one with the better service/warranty that is relevant to your local area. If you have a "whatever" depot just down the main road and they have been in business since 1950, you'll be using whatever they sell.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mage182]

You don't need a 'head' for each room, just one will do, placed at the top of the stairway.

Heat from the first floor will be cooled as it makes its way to the 2nd floor, and the cold air from the evaporator will sink down to the first floor.

This is how most 12000-18000btu mini splits are installed in Canada, and summers in NY state isn't much hotter.

Ceiling fans make air conditioning work even better, as it helps with the hot-cold air convection.

Take advantage of getting a few salespeople to your home to give "quotes", at least they will tell you where to put the "head". I am certain you need just one. Your latitude and sqaure footage does not justify multiple units.

Don't be so carried away by the brand, mini-splits are already a poor man's AC. You may want one with the better service/warranty that is relevant to your local area. If you have a "whatever" depot just down the main road and they have been in business since 1950, you'll be using whatever they sell.

I've received three quotes so far. All three have a similar system design using 5 heads. The output of the units varies slightly which I'll assume is due to the brand they are using. One lists Mistu, one Fujitsu, the last doesn't specify. All 3 estimates are $4000-5000 more than the same estimates those contractors gave me to install conventional central air so I'm not sure if you're claim that mini-splits are 'poor man's AC' are accurate.

Here are images of the floor plan of my house with the locations I've chosen to place the heads. I have read some articles claiming that only one head is needed per floor but most of those cases are open floor plans. If I place the head on the first floor in the living area there is no way it will cool the bedrooms enough especially since they are on the south side of the house. And on the second floor if I just put a unit in the hall neither bedroom will be cooled sufficiently. The total dimensions of the house are 30' wide by 22' deep.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Cooling/heating is osmotic. The temperature gradiant eventually disappates to the entire home over time. This is why a home with more funiture in it will "retain" more constant heat. Eventually your entire home and its walls and floors and ceiling will all act as one heat sink in unison.

Canada and NY summers are the same: summers are not Arizona hot, but they are humid and muggy. With the floor plan and SMALL square footage you have, only one head needs to be installed on the 2nd floor over the staircase. The biggest feat here is to remove humidity. One head will do that work. Once your humidity is gone, the rest of the air will cool amazing fast, as quick as 30mins.

I'm not sure if you came here to tell us what you were going to do, or ask for the proper opinion. If you don't like the answer, then ignore everything you read and do whatever you want to do, it's your money. With the current setup you seem to firmly want, this would be ideal for your home in Death Valley. I don't want other prospects thinking about a mini-split install to find this IMPROPER thread that is INCORRECT.

You're being taken for a ride and will be lining the pockets of the contractor that will do this work with good profits. First rule of selling: Once the client agrees to "more is better", don't talk them out of it. It's so much easier to ride their boat that they're sailing the wrong way.

 

[Dana]

I agree with standardairconditioner- you're being taken for a (way too common) ride.

Unless you've done a rigorous Manual-J calculation it's hard to correctly spec the mini-splits. A head per room is a pretty ridiculous approach and there's no F'in' way the master bedroom needs a 1-ton head, or the living room. The living room might need a 1-ton head if you were intending the mini-split to be the primary heating source, but even that would be dubious.

Rule of thumb suck, but if I had to pull one out of the air, the most a typical 2x4 framed (but insulated) house in NY would need is about a ton of mini-split per 1000' of conditioned space, and many would be looking at a ton per 1500' of space. That doesn't translate well to individual room loads though. West facing windows with clear glass can have a huge amount of solar gain late in the day when outdoor temps are near peak and the thermal mass of the house is at it's peak.

In terms of equipment vendors, Daikin makes some of the most reliable mini-splits out there, but Mitsubishi & Fujitsu aren't far behind. The rest hardly matter. The key thing is vendor support from the distributors, which varies a lot by location. In my area (central MA) Mitsubishi has better support than all the rest, hands-down, with a regional training center 20 miles from my house, followed by Fujitsu, with Daikin a distant third, but still some. If you look at the vendors "find me an installer" pages, if you have a hand ful of their highest rated, most trained installers in your area that's usually good enough. It's just one, with no special stars next to the name, you might look elsewhere.

Seriously- find a third party engineer or energy nerd like a HERS rater to do an aggressize (not conservative) room by room load calculation for both heating & cooling on your place. It might cost you $500 (maybe even a grand in the richer 'burbs & resorts), but it'll save you a heluva lot more than that on up front equipment costs, and it'll be a lot more comfortable.

As proposed if it's a 3-4 ton multi-split those heads will almost never modulate, only cycle on/off which cuts into both comfort and efficiency. If right-sized it will spend much more time modulating than cycling.

If you are heating the place with propane or oil it's worth the upcharge for heat pump versions rather than cooling only, so knowing the room by room heat loads may figure out if it

If you have a full basement you can probably cool the whole first floor with a single 3/4 ton or 1 ton mini-duct cassette mounted at ceiling level in the basement, but finding the contractor competent to do that well is sometimes a challenge.

Point source cooling with a correctly sized wall-unit per floor usually works well enough. Rather than a multi-split, two separate units usually works better and is usually more efficient. Look at the MINIMUM output specs, not just the "rated" and "maximum" numbers. A lower minimum means longer run cycles, higher comfort, better as-used efficiency.

 

[Mage182]

Cooling/heating is osmotic. The temperature gradiant eventually disappates to the entire home over time. This is why a home with more funiture in it will "retain" more constant heat. Eventually your entire home and its walls and floors and ceiling will all act as one heat sink in unison.

Canada and NY summers are the same: summers are not Arizona hot, but they are humid and muggy. With the floor plan and SMALL square footage you have, only one head needs to be installed on the 2nd floor over the staircase. The biggest feat here is to remove humidity. One head will do that work. Once your humidity is gone, the rest of the air will cool amazing fast, as quick as 30mins.

I'm not sure if you came here to tell us what you were going to do, or ask for the proper opinion. If you don't like the answer, then ignore everything you read and do whatever you want to do, it's your money. With the current setup you seem to firmly want, this would be ideal for your home in Death Valley. I don't want other prospects thinking about a mini-split install to find this IMPROPER thread that is INCORRECT.

You're being taken for a ride and will be lining the pockets of the contractor that will do this work with good profits. First rule of selling: Once the client agrees to "more is better", don't talk them out of it. It's so much easier to ride their boat that they're sailing the wrong way.

I'm not try to step on any toes. I'm just laying out what the estimates I have been provided state along with my own adjustments since none of the contractors had any interest in placing the heads on walls that weren't exterior. I don't trust these estimates (system design or pricing) so I posted here since everyone has been a huge help in the past with giving advice on my heating system.

I have read a bunch of articles which state that one or two large units is enough to cool an entire house. But do you really think one unit mounted over the bathroom door in the hallway upstairs will be enough to cool the two bedrooms on the first floor on a 90+degree muggy day on Long Island? Both the south and west sides of my house get full sun exposure so it can get quite hot inside. Before we build the second floor I would run 6k units in each bedroom downstairs and a 14k floor standing unit in the living room and on hot days the 3 could barely keep the temp inside below 80. I know the mini splits are better at removing moisture from the air but that is a lot of divided space for one unit to cool.

 

[Mage182]

I agree with standardairconditioner- you're being taken for a (way too common) ride.

Unless you've done a rigorous Manual-J calculation it's hard to correctly spec the mini-splits. A head per room is a pretty ridiculous approach and there's no F'in' way the master bedroom needs a 1-ton head, or the living room. The living room might need a 1-ton head if you were intending the mini-split to be the primary heating source, but even that would be dubious.

Rule of thumb suck, but if I had to pull one out of the air, the most a typical 2x4 framed (but insulated) house in NY would need is about a ton of mini-split per 1000' of conditioned space, and many would be looking at a ton per 1500' of space. That doesn't translate well to individual room loads though. West facing windows with clear glass can have a huge amount of solar gain late in the day when outdoor temps are near peak and the thermal mass of the house is at it's peak.

In terms of equipment vendors, Daikin makes some of the most reliable mini-splits out there, but Mitsubishi & Fujitsu aren't far behind. The rest hardly matter. The key thing is vendor support from the distributors, which varies a lot by location. In my area (central MA) Mitsubishi has better support than all the rest, hands-down, with a regional training center 20 miles from my house, followed by Fujitsu, with Daikin a distant third, but still some. If you look at the vendors "find me an installer" pages, if you have a hand ful of their highest rated, most trained installers in your area that's usually good enough. It's just one, with no special stars next to the name, you might look elsewhere.

Seriously- find a third party engineer or energy nerd like a HERS rater to do an aggressize (not conservative) room by room load calculation for both heating & cooling on your place. It might cost you $500 (maybe even a grand in the richer 'burbs & resorts), but it'll save you a heluva lot more than that on up front equipment costs, and it'll be a lot more comfortable.

As proposed if it's a 3-4 ton multi-split those heads will almost never modulate, only cycle on/off which cuts into both comfort and efficiency. If right-sized it will spend much more time modulating than cycling.

If you are heating the place with propane or oil it's worth the upcharge for heat pump versions rather than cooling only, so knowing the room by room heat loads may figure out if it

If you have a full basement you can probably cool the whole first floor with a single 3/4 ton or 1 ton mini-duct cassette mounted at ceiling level in the basement, but finding the contractor competent to do that well is sometimes a challenge.

Point source cooling with a correctly sized wall-unit per floor usually works well enough. Rather than a multi-split, two separate units usually works better and is usually more efficient. Look at the MINIMUM output specs, not just the "rated" and "maximum" numbers. A lower minimum means longer run cycles, higher comfort, better as-used efficiency.

I actually called two companies about getting a ACCA Manual J calculation done on Monday. Both estimates came back in today. One charges .10 per sqft (~$140 total) and one wants .15 (~$200 total). These are both lower than what you estimated. Do I also want a Manual S done?

I already have an Alpine boiler installed that you've helped me with in the past, so I just need the minis for cooling. I do have full south and west exposure with numerous windows. The entire house is insulated with R15 or R30 Roxul with all new windows and doors so that should make things more efficient.

I will look into Daikin and check out their product line. No contractors have mentioned them yet. It looks like the single units are much more efficient than the multi head units so it would make me happy even if I could just install 2 single head units and have them run for long periods of time modulating up and down.

I'm all too familiar with minimum outputs and 'bouncing off the bottom' with my Alpine. I will keep the minimums in mind when researching the models that make the shortlist for installation.

 

[Dana]

I've never seen a Manual-J done at those low rates, even outside of Gold Coast kind of markets. What are the certifications/qualifications of the people offering the service at those prices?

Look up U-factors & SHGC of all your shiny new windows & doors and have that ready for them on Monday. And when you get that information verify that they actually USED that information. Make sure they know the depth, condition and rated R-value of your attic insulation too- don't leave it to them. (Wall-R errors aren't very significant for cooling load calculations, but attic-R is.) If you have ever had a blower door test done on the place, make sure they have (and use) that information too. Tell them you want it to be aggressive, not conservative, with the goal being not to oversize. Otherwise they're likely to make many simplifying assumptions that are too conservative, pushing the load numbers higher than reality.

Even recently I've saw two Manual-J reports issued on a new high performance high-R houses under construction that had all code-minimum assumptions on the report, with load numbers more than 2x what the engineers had calculated using more sophisticated simulation tools. They had been given the full specifications and floor plan, but ignored everything except the dimension measurements. (Both contractors actually had the gall to submit bills for that "service", which would have been deducted from the HVAC installation bill should they win the bid on a separately proposed set of equipement. Needless to say, neither company got the business.)

In most of upstate NY (outside of Westchester County) the cooler heating design temps makes most of Daikin's lineup less attractive in heating mode than Fujitsu & Mitsubishi, but for cooling they would be fine. During the shoulder seasons using a heating & cooling Daikin to cover the load can work economically though. On Long Island it's possible to get decent efficiency in heating mode out of most of them even at the ~+15F 99% outside design temp.

Even though it hit's 90F on Long Island, the 1% outside design temps for most of the less-urban ZIP codes are in the ~85-87F range, sometimes lower at the shore fronts. Keep an eye on design temps used for the calculations too. You'll have better humidity control with a slightly undersized unit that modulates to a lower level and runs more hours than a slightly oversized one at 2x the minimum modulation. When the indoor RH is in the low 40%s it's still pretty comfortable with indoor temps in the low 80s, especially if that sensible temperature condition doesn't persist into the dinner hour or beyond which it won't, even if somewhat undersized.

With the doors to the bedrooms open to allow convection, yes, you can cool the house with a ceiling cassette or wall unit in the hall, even on a 90F muggy day if sized properly for the load. A bedroom on the west side of the house with a significant amount of west facing window area might need a small fan-assist rather than mere convection.

If the design cooling load for a zone is 12,000 BTU or less the Mitsubishi -FH09NA is a good choice, since it can modulate between 1700-12,000 BTU/hr in cooling mode at 95F outdoors, 80F indoors. The efficiency is tested at "rated" 9000 BTU/hr, not the full-on 12,000 BTU/hr- it won't hit it's efficiency numbers when actually running faster than 9000 BTU/hr but it'll beat it's numbers by quite a bit if it's peak load is anything less than 9000 BTU/hr. They make a half-ton version too, but it doesn't modulate any lower,than the FH09 and the difference in hardware cost is under $200. The minimum modulated output of most multi-splits is about 6000-7000 BTU/hr.

 

[Mage182]

I have the results from the Manual J & S analysis that was done. In total it cost $300 and provides me with the heat loads for each room which will help with sizing the cast iron baseboard for the second story addition as well as AC for the whole house.

Here are the heating/cooling loads for each room:

The HERS vendor then worked with an engineer to design a ductless system based on the numbers. This is what they came up with.

The placement of the units is similar to what I specd earlier. I can't place a unit over the bay window in the living room (FCU-1-3) and the units in the bedrooms on the south side (FCU-1-2 & FCU-2-2) can't be placed there due to the framing on the staircases. I can't run the line sets to those locations. The engineer said that any other location in the room is acceptable, just not optimal.

The main difference is the sizing. While the loads for individual rooms are still a bit low for the FH06 units, leaving doors open should increase the load enough to balance demands and allow the system to modulate. They also recommended that PAR-31MAA remote controller, but I don't see any benefit for the price. I'm happy using the remotes that come with each unit.

My biggest gray area that is left is a condensate drains. What I'm thinking of doing as of right now is to pipe hard lines tied together [(FCU-2-1 & FCU-1-3) and (FCU-2-2, FCU-1-1, and FCU-1-2)] with strategically located cleanouts and run them into the basement where the slop sink is. I still have to work out pipe diameters and how to properly pitch these runs as to not run into problems.

I did bring up the idea of using just 1 one or two units centrally but the engineer said that It would cause warm zones in all 4 bedrooms and that obviously none of the bedroom doors would be able to be closed during the cooling season.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Honestly, it appears you have the cash to burn, so go ahead and do whatever you want. I didn't expect you to get this report, I thought the other guy making the suggestion was just trolling you.

I'm actually happy that another fellow Hvac installer will be paid well for this awesome job. Homeowners often think we are out to rip them off, in your case it is the inverse.

I wish I had clients like you every visit that would pad my pockets with handsome profits.

 

[Mage182]

Honestly, it appears you have the cash to burn, so go ahead and do whatever you want. I didn't expect you to get this report, I thought the other guy making the suggestion was just trolling you.

I'm actually happy that another fellow Hvac installer will be paid well for this awesome job. Homeowners often think we are out to rip them off, in your case it is the inverse.

I wish I had clients like you every visit that would pad my pockets with handsome profits.

The company that provided the Manual J & S isn't an HVAC installer, they're a HERS certified contractor with no ties to anyone doing an install. Their only goal is to do an analysis and provide the best solution to cool the house in the most efficient way possible. Dana isn't a troll, he consistently provides in depth explanations and analysis on topics that are backed up by facts in a pleasant tone. You on the other hand are claiming that I can cool my entire closed floor plan cape that has zero shade cover from trees on any of four sides with one ductless unit. Your caustic demeanor and elitist attitude doesn't make people value your opinion, it just makes you come off as angry and argumentative.

When I decide to do this install I'll be doing it myself. Based on the estimates I've received there is no way I'll be 'padding the pockets' of any HVAC installers who want to charge more than double the cost of materials if I buy everything wholesale.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

no way I'll be 'padding the pockets' of any HVAC installers who want to charge more than double the cost of materials if I buy everything wholesale.

I really like to get paid well for my work, especially all that driving around to pick up materials just so homeowners can have a luxurious cool home. Wouldn't make sense for me to re-sell stuff at 10% above my cost. Then I can use those profits for my luxurious home, I am allowed that, right?

 

[Dana]

I only WISH that more HVAC installers were competent to perform the load numbers and size equipment accordingly. Most just guess using some dumb rule of thumb guaranteed to oversize, then when the equipment manages to keep the place warm or cool enough they don't get the call-back. But that's not optimal on either cost or comfort.

The $300 spent on the Manual-J clearly saves more than $300 on equipment cost, when one compares the original proposal with the more recent proposal. Even if it had cost a grand it would have been cost effective on up-front costs, and paying dividends every year thereafter.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Most just guess using some dumb rule of thumb guaranteed to oversize

Rather the opposite.

People are so frugal these days, they absolutely want the lowest cost possible, and that would be a 12000btu mini-split. So it is rather common that I end up installing one in a 2-story home of about 1000 sq.ft.

The funny thing is that it works. On a hot 95°F day, humidity usually in the 80-100%, the inside temp of the home will be 75-80°F, with about 40-50% humidity. It doesn't look like there is much contrast in numbers, but the experience is night and day. The unit is literally pissing water out of the tube.

Then a week later, I get a call from their neighbor/friends, who want the exact same cheapie 12000btu. That's how happy they are on the absolute bare minimal.

The minute you start to "recommend" what is proper, people close their wallets. Your head is in the clouds if you think we can "oversize". Not going to happen in recession-Canada.

Thank god Hvac breaks ALL-THE-TIME and we make more fixing someone else's install, being able to charge whatever we want. I did mention the part how I really like to get paid so I can buy nice things for my home?

 

[Dana]

In my direct experience HVAC contractors in my area have no CLUE as to how to properly size the equipment (heating or cooling), even when the customer such as mage182 has a realistic budget.

If a customer is telling you all they want is a 1-ton Gree, and you install it for them without running the load numbers that's between you and them. Sounds like the sort of customer who is only interested in the difference between having SOME air conditioning as opposed to none.

Central air conditioning is very common on Long Island NY, (probably much more common than Montreal) , and on L.I. what gets installed is typically oversized. I can't count the number of time's I've heard "You need about a ton of air conditioner for every 500 square feet", which on Long Island or New England is usually more than 2x oversized for the actual calculated loads.

Nobody in Montreal is going to tell you to install an 1-ton Gree for space heating. Heating contractors in my area usually recommend (no, INSIST upon) equipment that's 2-3x oversized for the loads, using either a " About 25 BTU per square foot" or " 35 BTU per square foot" idiots rule of thumb. I've even heard people suggest 50 BTU/ft with a straight face.
The up-front cost difference between 40,000 BTU/hr and an 120,000 BTU/hr gas burners isn't very much, but the comfort difference is, in an area where the average house has a design heating load of about 30,000 BTU/hr. Contractors regularly install hydronic boilers with outputs in excess of 100,000 BTU/hr into these houses, often more boiler output than the radiation can even emit.

How did Nitroman58 end up with a 200 MBH modulating condensing boiler that's so ridiculously oversized it can neither modulate nor condense, in a house with a design heat load that is probably only ~50MBH? (My guess is that the contractor installing the mod-con read the name plate on the oversized 1950s cast iron beast it replaced, and matched it.)

I never met the idiot who installed the 5 tons of central AC in my ~2400' house, a house with sufficient afternoon shade factors that my 1%design load is under 1.5 tons. That happened before my time. I would probably be better off with a 1-ton Gree! (Seriously, a half-ton window shaker in an upstairs window almost keeps up with the whole house load if I keep the doors open.)

Maybe my head is in the clouds, but that's what I actually see (far more often than not.)

 

[Standardairconditioner]

heating or cooling

Not even. Strickly cooling only. Been this way since the world market crash. Big installs that I repair is all old pre-2008 stuff. New installs after that, mostly 1ton cool only mini-splits.

Anyways, the main point is that from the hundreds of homes I have been in, I have NEVER seen an evaporator head put in every friggin room in a dwelling. To even suggest such a thing to a homeowner would be ludicrous. Maximum is one per floor (assume no single floor mansions). Always goes in hallways, staircases, or the largest open room.

 

[Dana]

In New England mini-split / multi-split heating capacities & efficiency beat the heating cost of oversized oil burners by a huge margin when #2 oil was retailing north of $4/US-gallon. The head-per room craze seems to have caught on here, despite the oversizing, and despite the fact that reasonable cold climate ducted solutions exist.

A good number of those many-head ductless solutions paid for themselves on displaced heating oil cost alone over a handful of high oil price years. It's still cheaper to heat with mini-splits than heating oil in southern New England, despite high electricity prices and much lower oil prices, but the "pay back" time is now much longer.

The colder 99% design temps of Quebec make mini-splits less suitable for a heating solution than in the northeastern US, but I do know a guy in Quebec on an island in the St. Lawrence heating his high-R house with four separate Fujitsu RLS2-H units. He did fine even at outdoor temperatures of -30C-35C, but there wouldn't be sufficient capacity at that temp for most houses.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

multi-split heating

It's literally apples and oranges when it comes to heat pumps. Each room needs a heat source: ducted, baseboard, wall-convection (very popular here), 120v plug-in unit on sale from Walmart (apartment tenants popular), whatever.

Read the OP's (Original Poster) post, they want to put an evaporator head in EACH ROOM for cooling, in a small COTTAGE.

In my honest opinion, if I met a client like that, I certainly would not talk them out of it. I like money.

 

[Dana]

It's good to know where you stand on the ethics of selling a client too much equipment.

Cooling only mini-split/multi-split installs aren't unheard of in this area, but heat pumps are the norm. The up-charge for a heat pump version over cooling-only isn't very large for single head units, and it seems multi-splits are always heat pumps. The MXZ series compressors and FH series heads are heat pumps.

The proposals received early on were all for 5 heads systems, with ALL heads ridiculously oversized for their zone loads. The proposal after the load calculation only had a couple of heads ridiculously oversized for the zone loads. Since it's new construction for the second floor, designing it with fewer heads seems more reasonable. A single mini-duct cassette for the second floor seems reasonable if the framing is designed to accommodate the ducts below the pressure & thermal boundary of the house. There's probably a 2 ton 3 cassette solution for this house if mini duct cassettes are allowed. The FH06 heads are about as good as you're going to do if the bedrooms really need to be zoned separately.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

It's good to know where you stand on the ethics of selling a client too much equipment.

Does the dealership tell the soccer mom she doesn't NEED a Range Rover? Or tell an facebook follower they don't NEED that i7 quad core on ssd? We can go endless especially with what people don't NEED on their yachts.

Look how the OP here was ready to grab his entire shopping list in a heartbeat.

I'm not the one doing any bible thumping. People often tell me "I read this on a blog, so...", at that point they have their mind set on a specific brand, a specific tonnage, a specific SEER, whatever. It would actually cost me more valuable time to educate them to size down their needs, which is something I used to do, and have lost them to go deal with someone else that will give them what they already want.

Would be nice if I got a Range Rover to haul all my work stuff in. And that would make the Land Rover dealership and their well-dressed mechanics very happy.