Cracked flange on concrete

[ttuan]

I live in a condo high rise with concrete floors and about 3 days ago the toilet started to wobble when sat on. I looked more closely after flushing and the toilet was sealed all around with caulk, but the caulking was a little damp in one small spot. I've been looking for an excuse to replace the toilet since it clogs all the time and splashes way too much when flushed and thought this would be a good DIY experience because friends and the internet have told me its not too difficult. I thought it might be something wrong with the wax seal or the flange itself.

First, I've removed the toilet and cleaned off most of the wax around the flange which is plastic. I see at least two cracks (each near the outside of the bolts) and I read online you can buy reinforcement rings that go on top of the existing flange and get drilled and screwed into the floor. However, the existing flange is not completely flat - the sides of the flange with the bolts are raised slightly, maybe around 1/4 inch or just slightly more, and the top and bottom sides of the flange are flat. Is that because of the wax that is underneath the flange, pushing it up? I'm not sure what to do at this point to make the flange flat.

Also, since the floor is concrete, will I run into any issues with the reinforcement rings? I assume I can just get drill bits made for concrete drilling and use a regular sears drill for a small project like this.

Thanks in advance for any help provided. Thankfully there are public restrooms in my building so I haven't needed to use my bathroom.

 

[Reach4]

Tapcons are blue screws that work nicely into concrete. The package identifies the correct drill size for drilling into concrete, and they generally sell that drill bit along side of the Tapcon screws.

I think you are saying that there is a gap between the existing flange and the floor, but the flange is pretty much level. How high above the floor are the top and bottom of the flange?

Or are you saying that the bulk of the flange is flush with the floor, but the damaged area is raised up. If that, you can probably press the damaged part back flush, or even cut it away if that is a small part of the flange.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ttuan]

The second point - bulk of flange is flush to floor but damaged area is raised up. I haven't been able to push down on it to flatten at all, which is why I was worried if I put in a ring the ring will not be flat either.

 

[Terry]

When you say high rise and concrete, my first question is:

Is this a wood framed building with light weight concrete poured 1.5" thick over plywood?
Of is this a true concrete building with concrete floors?

Trying to do much drilling with light weight and cause it to break up. You may do better on that with screws through the wood floor.
If it's prestressed concrete, you can drill into that, being careful not to nick a cable.

I would set any bowl down over the flange first to see if it rocks or not. If the flange is high, a horn may prevent the bowl dropping down to the floor.
If it's low, you may need either thick wax, or two rings.
Normally, if a flange is below finished floor, it tanks two.

If the plastic flange is cracked and weak, you can secure it better with a flat repair flange.

The lower part of a bowl has space under it, so a little above the floor is fine, and wax conforms.

 

[Reach4]

You could sand off the high portion with a disk or belt sander, or you could cut away the portion that is bent up.

 

[ttuan]

Thanks for the responses. I haven't been able to take out any of the old screws in the flange, so I wouldn't be able to use those screw holes for the repair ring. I bought a stainless steel one that has 6 holes, some of which line up with the existing flange holes - do I need to screw in all 6 holes or can I get away with less?

 

[Wallijonn]

Concrete floor with black PVC pipe? You'd remove the old flange gingerly, taking care not to damage the PVC pipe, and then install a Clam flange ring underneath the PVC pipe lip. But if it's cast pipe, you may have a easy or hard repair choice to make.

 

[Dan J]

Hi all,
I believe my only choice right now is the Sioux Ringer (Covid-19 safety closures).

I have a poured concrete slab (ground level in Florida). What length TapCons are recommended?

thank you and STAY SAFE!

 

[Reach4]

I have a poured concrete slab (ground level in Florida). What length TapCons are recommended?

I would go with either 3/16 or 1/4 x 1-1/4 if I have a stainless steel ring on my closet flange and the concrete is flat. I would opt for hex head. Drill the hole to have a minimum of 1/4 inch of air space below the tip of the screw. Blow out the dust after drilling. They sometimes sell the matching drill bit as a kit with screws.

https://www.confast.com/articles-how-to-install-concrete-screws/

Pros often use lead anchors instead. I suspect those might take more skill to get the hole centered.

 

[Dan J]

Good morning Reach4,
I should have mentioned I have a glued PVC flange that's cracked. There's very little clearance under it so I don't think I can get a clamp on it.

At home I have TapCons in 1-3/4 & 2-3/4 in white and a blue (they were out of stock on white at the time) 1-1/4. All are 3/16. My place is brick & block so I use them all the time for hanging, not pull strength.

Out of an abundance of caution I was going to use the 2-3/4 but you're saying to go much shorter so ... ?

thank you,
Dan

 

[Reach4]

1-3/4 should be OK. Maybe go oversize in the top 3/8 of an inch for the hole. to minimize the torque. Maybe that thick PVC flange will make that not important. I would put a metal repair ring atop that pvc. I am pretty sure that is what you had in mind. If you had a belt sander, you could thin that cracked pvc closet flange before putting the repair ring on. We hope the sandwich of material plus the screw heads does not stick up too much.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....estion-all-bolts-necessary.87154/#post-625319
Poster broke two tapcons. Did he not drill the holes deep enough, did not blow out the dust, or chose too- long screws? I don't know.

 

[Dan J]

let me start by asking, is there any reason not to go with the longest TapCon so I get the best bite? I've got a hammer drill so it would only take a few seconds longer.

you're correct, I'm using the stainless Sioux flange on top of the other PVC. and, we're putting down a new floor and it's 1/4" shorter than the old tile so the flange is proud of the floor. I'm using the Fluidmaster Better Than Wax and can adapt for 1/4" so it shouldn't need to be sanded down.

thank you,
Dan

 

[Reach4]

et me start by asking, is there any reason not to go with the longest TapCon so I get the best bite?

From the link I put in #9

The harder the base material, the less embedment is required to attain sufficient holding values. The minimum embedment for a Tapcon® concrete screw is 1” and the maximum embedment is 1-3/4”.​

My concern is that the screw breaks.

From what I have read, a hammer drill is good for drilling the hole, but not for driving the screw. People say to drive slowly.

 

[Jadnashua]

Tapcons are hardened steel and the threads literally cut into the concrete. Hardened steel is also a bit more brittle. So, yes, trying to drive it too far into the hole would generate more friction. If you happen to hit a piece of stone aggregate in the hole, that can make a difference, too. While it's cutting those threads in the concrete, it's creating some dust, so you really do need to make the hole deeper than where the screw will go, otherwise, you'll be trying to drive it into the dust which won't compress, and add even more resistance to seating the screw down. Sometimes, just like when cutting threads, it can help to back the thing out slightly if you hit a tight spot to clear it similar to cutting threads with a tap or die, then continue to tighten things down. Most of the time, you can just screw it right in, but not always.

My guess is that the portion of the plastic flange that is cracked will be bent back down as you tighten the repair ring. As long as you get things all tight, you should be okay. The bends and cracks are why plumbers do not recommend an all-plastic toilet flange, nor, do they generally like those with a painted, plain steel ring...those tend to rust out.

The plastic is probably a bit over 1/4" thick, and the repair ring probably around 1/8", so subtract that from the length of your screw. WIth that in mind, the 1-3/4" ones should work.

 

[Dan J]

thank you for the info, I went with the 1-3/4. but, it's too tall because the old tile was mounted on backer board that made it really tall so I'm going to lower the PVC mount tomorrow.

thanks again,
Dan

- edited because typing on a cell phone is problematic

 

[Reach4]

If the pipe the flange is connected to is 4 inch instead of 3 inch, there are more choices available to you.

If that is 3 inch pipe coming up to an outside flange, you might be able to use a special tool to get the old flange off of the pipe.

If using wax, place the shims first before dropping the toilet on the wax. You don't want to de-compress wax to insert shims.

 

[Dan J]

Reach 4 & jadnashua,
all done. just to help out others that may need help someday, I cut the flange down into a much shorter and smaller bowl shape using my multi-tool.

the Better-Than-Wax ring sems to be working really well and it filled in the gap between the new toilet and the cut down flange. the Danco Hydroseat was recommended by Reach and might work better but so far so good.

thank you both for the help & Terry for the forum and Stay Safe everyone,
Dan