Buying a new toilet in Michigan

[jso-mi]

Getting ready to purchase 2 new toilets for our upstairs bathrooms. Was looking at Kohler product, Highline Classic Comfort.
Biggest issue with old toilet (besides the huge water bill since it's the 3.7 gallon model) is that it takes at least 2 flushes to completely eliminate solid waste.
I read about the Toto Models, but Plumber Contractor (our friend) told us that parts are not readily available in our area (Michigan).
Our current units have insulated tanks and it scares me to not get new units with this feature (husband does not think this is necessary)
We are looking for an ADA height, Elongated, 2 piece unit, in white, and I think insulated would also be a smart idea. Really need something that can flush large solids as our current unit gets plugged very easily.
Would welcome some suggestions from this great forum.

 

[Reach4]

I read about the Toto Models, but Plumber Contractor (our friend) told us that parts are not readily available in our area (Michigan).

There are ones still available that use flappers rather than a new flush tower. I don't know how to be sure you get one.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

Many of the newer toilets work better than the old ones. In 1992 they restricted water usage to 1.6 gallons or less. The first crop of those weren't very good, but there have been many improvements. The Kohler Highline Classic Comfort should work just fine for you.
Most new ones are now 1.28 GPF, and because of that, the insulated tanks are not needed as much. Most of the time you are only flushing a little bit of water at a time and most of the water stays in the tank.

Parts that can be needed for repairs:

Fill valves are pretty standard for all brands. There are only a few manufactures of them and they may be used and traded back and forth. Any hardware store will carry three brands on the shelves that will fit most anything you have.

Flush valves are more likely a bit harder to match up. Of the newer tanks, most any 3" flapper is considered pretty standard now. Kohler has their cannister flush, and those seals are common now. American Standard uses both a 3" and a 4". Gerber has some 2" and 3" flappers. TOTO has either the 3" flapper or the new Tower which is easy to remove and reinstall. Parts won't be an issue for any of these. If your plumber is only familiar with a few items, and you want to keep him happy, that's fine. I sell all of the brands, so I'm used to more variety.

Standard height, round bowl Kohler Wellworth.
K-3997 with K-4775 seat.
You will want the taller elongated version.

 

[Jadnashua]

A toilet with a dual-flush valve may be harder to find parts for, but most others, not a big deal. Most of the Toto toilets are not dual-flush. FWIW, most of the time, they don't catastrophically fail, IOW, you get an indication that things are starting to wear out, giving you time to gather up new parts. I generally have a spare flapper valve in the closet along with the cap/seal for the fill valve...not because they're hard to find, it's just that it's there when I need it. The first time you need to replace something, consider buying two so you'll have that spare around. With my water, I find my flapper valves last about 3-4 years, then start to leak. At my mother's house, they last years longer...different water and water treatment chemicals. Have a well, it could last lots longer.

 

[Treeman]

Where in Michigan? I went to the TOTO site and was able to locate a TOTO dealer locally in the Lansing area. You might be able to do the same. Maybe your plumber is more familiar with other brands and has bias towards those.

https://www.totousa.com/find-a-showroom Make some phone calls because the map does not show all locations. I.E., TA Gentry in K'Zoo has several stores across the state that stock TOTO.

I bought the TOTO Drake 1.6 ADA for my workplace shop bathroom. It flushes extremely well, but occasionally leaves a few streaks if someone has sticky poo. Maybe the cyclone flush does better? No buyer's remorse with this one. Regarding parts, I also initially wanted to go with the old style flapper for fear of proprietary flush valve parts availability. Someone here said the newer TOTO tower style might handle my hard water even better than the problematic flappers I dealt with in the past. Time will tell, but I also have no buyers remorse about this tower flush valve. Excellent so far in our hard water.

Regarding insulation: My old 3.7 gal. toilet used to sweat a LOT. This new TOTO rarely sweats, if at all. Someone else can maybe explain why, but it is probably because less new (cold) water fills the tank after a flush.

I had to laugh when one of my workplace physical plant guys commented about the "off brand" toilet I installed. I broke my old 3.7 gal toilet apart to find the passages all clogged with mineral deposits despite acid cleaning. I put my plunger away in storage. The Drake is awesome.

 

[jso-mi]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. One more question......
I just came across the Kohler Cimarron Comfort Height model. It has the aqua piston technology, which evidently rinses the bowl out better than the Highline model.
It looks a bit nicer as well, but I am more int. in the functional aspect.
Any thoughts on this?

 

[Terry]

The Kohler Aqua Piston is the Kohler cannister flush. Rinse is the same, just a different tank mounting.

 

[WJcandee]

Your plumber friend is incorrect.

You can get parts that will work in Toto very easily anywhere in the US. As Terry says, you can get the fill valve, which is interchangeable, at any hardware store. We like the Korky 528MP.

If you need a new flapper or the equivalent for a flush tower, you can just order it from Toto very easily and it will be there in a couple of days, or you can get it online, including from sites that deliver overnight. However, you and your friend can likely get it from a local plumbing supply store. Many plumbers continue to use an antiquated, slow supply chain, involving many middlemen, when things are available to the rest of us overnight. That's cool, and that's their choice, but to then say they can't get parts is shortsighted. I let my guy get stems for our faucets through his guy, because we know they're gonna be quality, but we also know that he's gonna have to come back in a week or so when they arrive. We let him get a bathroom faucet from his guy, because we knew it would be quality (and it is), but it took six weeks. Could have bought it myself elsewhere for $100 less and had it in two days, but we love our plumber so we let him do it his familiar way (and that way if something is wrong, it is his responsibility to make it right).

"It's hard to find parts" is a dodge, and what it really means is that it's a brand that they're unfamiliar with and they don't want to learn anything new. The fact is that Kohler is the brand that makes and uses a zillion weird non-standard parts that you can only get from them. But the carried-by-snails supply chain knows how to get those parts, so it's familiar to your plumber friend.

I hear it all the time, and not just from this profession. Electricians say it about the brand of generator that isn't the one they normally install. And it is almost-always 100-percent inaccurate (except when they're talking about Cummins/Onan). Our electrician, who we love and who likes the various Briggs & Stratton generator nameplates (like GE, etc.), says it about anything from Generac. Not surprisingly, our plumber, who installs Generac generators, says it about Briggs & Stratton. And both are wrong. Parts for either of these dominant brands are available easily. (You can order B&S parts through Sears Partsdirect for almost any one of their generators in the last 10 years and you'll have it in 2 days, and most dealers stock the parts that fail most often.)

But rather than say they prefer another brand because they're used to it, they say that "it's hard to find parts" for the brand they don't prefer.

 

[WJcandee]

Regarding the insulated tank thing.

Not sure why you think you need it, but if it is because of sweating on the outside of the toilet in humid weather (the usual reason), it is generally unnecessary today, except in very-specific application. The reason for this is that sweating is usually caused because icy-cold water from somewhere is entering the toilet tank and chilling the outside of the tank to a temperature that is low enough to cause the humidity in the air to condense on the outside of the tank.

In the old days, toilets used 5-7 gallons per flush and would drain and refill the whole tank on each flush.

This meant that enough water (5-14 gallons) was being drawn through the house piping on one or two flushes to bring up the icy-cold water from wherever it was coming from. The warmer water in the pipes (as a result of them being exposed to the conditions in the house) would be used up in the refill following the first flush or so. Then cold water would flow into the empty tank and fill it up. The porcelain would conduct some of that cold, and -- voila -- condensation.

These days, because toilets use 1.28 to 1.6 gallons per flush, it takes several flushes to bring the coldest water even to the wall behind your toilet. Then, when you flush, on newer toilets, the whole tank doesn't drain. Only about 1/2 of it. (The tank fills up high because the weight of the extra water is used to push hard on the water below as it flows through the fill valve, giving it more velocity.) So...today, any new, colder, water, if it even reaches your toilet tank, is mixed in with existing and presumably-warmer water, keeping the average temperature of the water in the tank much closer to room temperature than it used to be.

Now -- and Terry can explain this better -- there are places like Alaska where the water is super-cold and the air in some seasons is super-humid, and some folks don't have air conditioning or put the toilets in places that aren't air-conditioned, and so the percentage humidity in the air around the toilet is high enough that sweating can sometimes occur.

I don't know what the ambient conditions are where you live, nor where in your facility you plan to place the toilet, but that's the general idea.

Toto makes an insulated Drake toilet (CST744SD or CST744SLD in the ADA-height version), which works exceptionally-well and can normally be had at a substantial discount off of list price. Usually between $200 and $300. We have two Drakes (just regular height), and think they're great. No problem getting parts, either locally or online.

 

[Jadnashua]

If your toilet is in a location that gets very frequent use, insulation might help, as it might if you have a deep well where the water can be frigid all year long. But, as said, the tank holds lots more water than is used in the flush...the rest is there for extra push like a water tower...the higher it is, the more pressure. Normally, with some gaps between uses, the room-temp water in the tank along with refilling that mixes with it usually doesn't get below the dew point. MOst older toilets nearly emptied the tank and that, combined with running longer means you might end up getting some water from underground, where it is likely going to be colder rather than in the pipes and at room temperature.

One other thing...the plumber might get a better price on Kohler verses Toto, making his profit margin greater if he's supplying the toilet. Or, his normal supplier does carry it, or if they do but have to order it, it takes longer to obtain. NOte, when a plumber installs a part you buy, if there's an issue with the product, you pay to have him come back to fix it. When he supplies it, it's generally on him to make it right. Now, both are pretty reliable products, but Toto may have an edge over fewer defects out of the box.