Bathroom Remodel - Toilet Flange is Gone - FIX HELP NEEDED

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Jay neubert, Jan 30, 2021.

  1. Jay neubert

    Jay neubert New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Hello all,
    First time poster, but I've heard great things about the Plumbing advice here. Hoping you can advise!

    I have a long post on the JohnBridge.com forum on my bathroom remodel job, and they recommended that I post it here to get the proper plumbing advice. I'm at a standstill until I get this licked.

    Here goes... long story short, I have a small upstairs hall bathroom that I'm renovating where the existing flange was removed by recip saw as shown the photos. Investigating, the old flange appears to be originally connected to an ABS 90-degree closet bend with 4.5" OD as measured. I can see that it is a 90 degree bend upon inspecting down the pipe. The remaining shaft that the flange was removed from remains in the 90 degree elbow as you can see - and this ID is 3 3/8". I was going to try and remove the remaining piece also with a recip saw, but the previous poster told me that it was likely chemically glued together and this would prove nearly impossible.

    I would love to fix this by inserting a new repair flange into the 3 3/8" opening that remains. Possible? Recommendations? Maybe this or this could work...? The height is the challenge since I will want that to become level with my height of the substrate, new ply and tile.

    I'd like to avoid having to cut out part of the existing subfloor if I can help it. The joists would fight me. As you can see, I've drawn where the existing joist runs in pencil on the subfloor - it butts up to the drain pipe. Also, I'd like to avoid cutting from below as my ceiling below (my living room) is stippled and would be a total pain to cut into and fix. I'm just trying to start my damn floor tile job!! HELP!

    (Just an FYI: My plan is to add another .5" new ply to the existing 5/8" subfloor, plus .25" hardie backer, plus tile/thinset, making the total height somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.625". This should be perfect.)

    Originally, after removal (with old mud bed still intact):

    8.jpg

    90 degree elbow:

    plumb.jpg Plumb3.jpg Toilet.jpg Vanityarea.jpg

    I appreciate all assistance/guidance. :) Virtual beers all around.
     
  2. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Could it be 3.5 inches? If so, there are other possibilities.

    Some people have remove glued ABS with heat. It is more common with PVC, but you could search around including YouTube.
     
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  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Occupation:
    Plumber
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    How much vertical do you have to work with? If the outer is the hub of the 90 then the inner part can be reamed out.

    [​IMG]

    They make these for all sizes of pipes including 3" and 4"
    You might also consider using an repair flange that fits inside the pipe.

    [​IMG]

    The spigot end can be cut shorter.

    Or...........you could cut plywood and replace the 90 too.
     
  5. Jay neubert

    Jay neubert New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Hi guys,
    Thanks!

    Some additional measurements:

    4” - ID - drain pipe alone
    3.5” ID currently w flange shaft within
    1.75” Height from floor
    1.75ish - depth of inside flange shaft/piece I would need to bore out (if I went that way).

    q: for the repair flange above would I need to use the reamer also you think?

    it appears I would need to at least knock down some of the remains of the old flange just to bring the height down to the existing 4” pipe height.

    thanks!
    J
     
  6. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    You should be using a digital caliper to measure inside diameters. https://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-digital-caliper-63711.html Your measurement went from 3-3/8 to 3.5, so I expect you are using a tape measure. Greater precision is called for.

    So if that is 3.50 inches inside, you probably cut out a 4 inch x 3 inch closet flange such as https://www.ferguson.com/product/pr...with-stainless-steel-ring-pf4134a/_/R-3585832 . That is made to glue into the end of a 4 inch abs pipe, or outside of a 3 inch abs pipe. If that is the case, that elbow down the hole has a 4 inch spigot input. So it would not have a 4 inch hub that you could use, and the Read reamer made to cut a pipe from a 4 inch hub would not work for you. If the inside of that hole you have is not square/straight, you might have to address that. The hole you have now would match that of a 3 inch hub.

    I am thinking that what could work most easily for you is a 3 inch "spigot" closet flange. That has its tail the same size as a 3 inch pipe. [​IMG] I would choose one with a stainless steel ring for best durability. Make sure its sides are not tapered such that it could cause a problem. If it is, you would have to file clearance before gluing. Glue it in only once your floor is finished. There will be no easy do-over after gluing. I am not a pro.

    If there was a compression flange that would fit in there, I would opt for that. No glue means easy do-overs. I am not aware of any such product. One possibility would seem to be to glue a piece of 3 inch pipe in there. There are no-glue flanges for inside of 3-inch pipe. That seems to be a viable alternative to gluing in a 3-inch hub closet flange. Your pipe would have to extend far enough to engage the seal for your closet flange.

    But wait, there's more: If my theory is right, the outside of that pipe sticking up will measure 4.500 OD. That opens up the possibility of using a 4 inch outside closet flange. Those come in compression type. There are several. One is a 4 x 2 Code Blue closet flange. https://www.homedepot.com/p/JONES-STEPHENS-4-in-x-2-in-No-Caulk-Code-Blue-Cast-Iron-Slotted-Water-Closet-Flange-with-Test-Cap-C40425/313740740
    https://www.oatey.com/products/oatey-cast-iron-closet-flange-279105324 is another.
    In this case, the 2 is how far down it goes. But with an outside compression flange, you get easy do-overs. The downside is that you have to make clearance around that 4 inch ABS. That clearance needed will depend on the closet flange you go with.

    But there is a way. You drill a hole ( maybe a 5-1/2 hole saw, or maybe 6 inch) with a hole saw in a piece of scrap plywood. You center that hole around the 4.5 OD abs and temporarily secure it. Then you use that same hole saw to cut out the wood to clear the closet flange. That plywood holds the hole saw in position for drilling so there is no pilot drill needed. This would my favorite solution for you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  7. Jay neubert

    Jay neubert New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Hi Reach
    I appreciate the solution thoughts. I’ve read and re-read your note about 5x and I think I get it. Is this basically what you’re describing?:



    If so, this could work since I’m adding another .5” layer of ply on top of the existing anyway. I could use your technique (or just measure and cut this 5.5” diameter circle in the new additional subfloor ply) and install it over the existing. This should give me the depth I need once I have the hardie backer and tile installed on it as well. Just wanna make sure before I install it - which I can do!

    ;)
     
  8. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Yes for the part between about time 1:00 to 1:10. After that the video went weird.

    Get the flange in hand before cutting your clearance holes. I have not actually used or measured one.
     
  9. Jay neubert

    Jay neubert New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Ok...update...

    I finally have the metal flange in-hand after ordering it from THD online, and it will not fit over the existing pipe. I would have to remove the rubber seal from the inside of it (the one that notes to NOT do so) in order for it to seat over the pipe i believe .... should I return to the earlier idea and use the 3” spigot style that fits inside? Help!
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    What is the OD of that thing you were trying to fit over? It looks like you might have some kind of collar around the actual 3 inch pipe.

    If you did not get a long-reach digital caliper, you can use a sewing tape measure to measure OD. Then divide by pi. Alternatively, wrap something around, mark the size on that something, straighten that something out, and measure that with a yardstick etc.

    On the other hand, an inside fit, like that PushTite would simplify things nicely if your ID was about 3.04 inches.

    If you glue inside, you need to get it right the first time.
     
  11. Jay neubert

    Jay neubert New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Ok. I used the sewing tape method and it’s 4.5” OD. Technically 4.538” to be precise.

    You can clearly see the challenge in this photo. The ID of the new blue metal flange I bought is more like 4.25” with the rubber gasket within. ?
     
  12. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Did you try loosening the bolts all of the way to max the ID?

    If that pipe is flared at the top, you may need to rasp, or file, the flared part away.
     
  13. Jay neubert

    Jay neubert New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    Hi. It doesn’t appear to be flared, but I did loosen the bolts all the way to where they were barely hanging onto the threads. It was better and almost made it, but it felt like the rubber gasket was still fighting me.... hmm.
     
  14. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    How about unscrewing the bolts to drop the bottom piece out to get started?

    Also, I wonder if a little liquid dish detergent lubricating the rubber would help. People use dish detergent to help get rubber couplings on.

    I have never actually seen one of these, but it sure looks good to me
     
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