American Standard Champion 4 toilet review and pictures

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by Reader Review, Mar 11, 2008.

  1. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    The Korky allows water to drop from the bottom of the tank.
    Either way, it's going to work. I consider the raised flush valve to be a gimmick. They have a funnel there, which allows the marketing of the 4" flapper. It's still a funnel that reduces down to 3"
    When I use a funnel to add oil to my car, or for cooking, it's still a flow reducer.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  2. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    It's a gimmick. This isn't a pressure assist toilet that blasts waste from the bowl, it's a gravity toilet that works like all gravity toilets do -- by creating a siphon which PULLS the waste from the bowl and then replenishes the bowl. You know what else "lifts the entire top at once"? A tank ball. From the 1920s. Changing to a flapper didn't make a difference then and it doesn't make a difference now.

    The "magic" comes from the design of the trap way, which appears to be a double siphon system, similar to what Toto designed years ago.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2014
  3. MaxBlack

    MaxBlack Member

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    Northern Wisconsin
    OK I defer to y'all's expertise in this matter. The ASC4 is a lean mean flushin' machine and the next time that damn flush valve hangs-up again I will try the Korky.

    Thanks.
     
  4. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Apr 27, 2012
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    Well...hopefully it will continue to work well for you for many years hence. But if you need to try something different, that Korky valve should work well. Or you could get AS to send you a new accelerator flush valve. If you complain, maybe they'll do it for free. Meanwhile, happy to help!!
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2014
  5. MaxBlack

    MaxBlack Member

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    Location:
    Northern Wisconsin
    Living in the "extreme country" means doing most everything one's self, and I DO NOT know how I would manage w/o the Internet and the help of so many nice folks on boards like terrylove's.

    When the EMP strikes, or solar flare, it will not be a happy occurrence (though I WILL have water, and flushable toilets!).

    Thanks again. ;)
     
  6. kidbat

    kidbat New Member

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    Jun 11, 2014
    Location:
    WI
    I installed an AS Champion 4 about a month ago in my home. The installation went fine but 2 weeks after install it started leaking. AS sent me a new blue gasket and o-ring for the thumbscrew on the top of piston. I replaced both gasket and o-ring, but neither of the original materials seemed damaged. That was not the source of the leak.

    I've turned the water supply off several times to try to pinpoint where the leak is occurring (above or below the rim of the flush tower). The depth of water in the tank will lower to about 7" deep (well above the rim of flush tower) and hold (no more noticeable drop). I've seen it drop 1/2" in about an hour, but it will always hold between 7" or 7 1/16" depth consistently. I've let it sit all day without any further drop below this point. The refill tube seems fine and I haven't seen any water entering from a crack in the tube, therefore I'm assuming it must be the gasket on the bottom of flush tower or maybe the thumb screw on the top of flush valve?? I'm surprised that the leaking stops well above the source of the problem. I wouldn't think the water pressure would have that much influence, rather than the water continuing to drop to the source of the problem.

    Has anyone seen this before, or have any other good ideas as to where the problem is occurring? AS is now sending a replacement flush tower.

    The Champion 4 flushes great, but the leak is a hassle that started only 2 weeks after install and is very annoying. I just want to find the source and fix it and be done with it. Any suggestions or input on another source for the leak (instead of the common blue gasket location) is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
     
  7. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    New York, NY
    Is the refill hose attached by a clip to the top of the overflow riser (which comes up from the flush valve)? If it is stuck down in there, it will siphon the water from the bowl through the fill valve.

    That's the only other thing I can imagine, except for the potential of a crack in the overflow riser right around where the water settles to. Also don't leave out the possibility of a vertical crack that is only obvious if you squeeze the tower.

    Instead of replacing the stupid Funnelator thing with another one, you might buy the Korky 5030BP 3" flush valve kit. Just search online for it if it isn't available locally -- about $25 should do it. That is particularly designed for among others the Champion 4. You would then have a standard flush valve in there with a standard, inexpensive flapper which is easy to replace when the time comes. http://www.korky.com/?p=Product&i=1161
     
  8. kidbat

    kidbat New Member

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    I had wondered about the plastic clip which holds the refill hose on the overflow riser as a possible siphon location. I tested this twice in the last day. Both times after removing the clip there was no water loss in the tank. As soon as the clip goes back on the riser there is a tiny stream flowing down the inside of the riser from the clip location.

    Wouldn't this be a common problem? I haven't found the clip listed as a possible source of the problem anywhere.
     
  9. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    I am very confident that this means you have a vertical crack in the overflow riser, which is exacerbated by the force of the clip on the plastic. Try pinching the riser and see if I'm right...
     
  10. kidbat

    kidbat New Member

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    Ok. I tried to see if there was a vertical crack, but I couldn't find anything. I further watched the overflow tube after the tank was full to see if the plastic clip (holding the refill tube) was drawing up water and over the overflow riser. I was able to track a tiny stream of water flowing down the inside of the riser from the plastic clip. I moved the clip to several different locations around the top of the riser and could see the tiny stream of water following the clip location. The drawdown in the tank will continue to about 5/8" below the brim of the overflow riser. The pictures show the water drawn up from the tank and the tiny stream flowing down inside of the riser overflow.
    siphon_overflow_reduced.jpg tiny stream inside overflow riser_reduced.jpg

    If I set my tank water level to 3/8" below the top of the overflow riser, then the siphon (or wicking action) caused by the plastic clip does not occur.

    If the water level is set above the 3/8" mark, then either one of two things:

    1) if water level is set very high (near the brim of the riser), then water will drop far enough to activate the water valve and the tank will refill on a regular basis (in my case a cycle of about every 30 minutes),

    2) if water level is set 1/4" below the riser, then a drawdown will still occur and tank level will drop to 5/8" below the top of overflow riser but the refill water valve does not activate. My valve seems to need about a 1/2" drop before it activates. This situation does not waste water by continually topping off the tank, but the drop of the water level (caused by the clip siphoning water) takes it down to 5/8" below the riser. This produces a poor flush even for liquid waste.

    I set my water level yesterday at 3/8" below the riser and no drawdown begins and the water level is held. The flush within the bowl is also acceptable. The AS Champion 4 does have a note within the tank that says to set the water level 1/2" below overflow top. The tank was factory set with the water level set to the very top of riser. You could actually see the surface tension of the water above the riser. I liked the flush results and just kept it high, but the clip for the refill tube causes drawdown in the tank. The good news is that it is not a gasket problem or a damaged flush tower that I have to replace.

    [​IMG]

    siphon_overflow.jpg

    tiny stream inside overflow riser.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2021
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  11. Wallijonn

    Wallijonn Member

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    Arizona
    kidbat,

    That was an excellent find, absoutely brilliant! Thanks.This one should be book marked for future reference.

    Two possible fixes:
    1] install a piece of metal inside the tube that has an over hang, something that the top of the clip does not contact, to break water tension. A cone shaped plug may also work, install the cone on the inside (it should have as close to the same OD as the tube ID, and the angle should create an over hang (except upside down).

    2] add a small foot, like an automotive air hose tip, over the bottom of clip to extend the distance between the clip and the side of the tube.

    What the first picture is showing is what happens to windows, where water travels up when there is no flashing, or no drip edge.

    Imagine if you glued a plastic washer over the top of the tube that had the same I.D. but just slightly over the O.D. Use a very thin bead of silicon to secure the washer on the underside of the washer and under the washer that contacts the top of the tube.

    http://www.lbmjournal.com/article/236

    http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/drippy-drip-edge-on-wood-shed.101213/ gives a tip you can try - run a bead of silicone around the top of the tube. I was thinking more of a star washer with it's fingers angled downwards... Obviously you want the silicone to cure before re-installing the clip and if you put on too much silicon the clip may contact the silicone; you need to try both ways, no-contact and contact if the no-contact doesn't work, then you'd just smear on a bigger bead of silicone.

    http://www.garymkatz.com/Publications/Articles/BillRobinson/Water-runs-uphill.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
  12. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Location:
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    Very, very interesting. Of course, we don't see "clip siphon" on here typically, because the water level is supposed to be below the bottom of the clip (i.e. 1/2" below top of overflow riser). Thanks for the photos.
     
  13. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    Post #130 is remarkable. Waxing the upper area of the overflow tube and/or bracket would probably reduce that effect. Cutting a slot widening the gap over an interval might stop the effect, but lowering the water makes sense as a solution.
     
  14. kidbat

    kidbat New Member

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    Location:
    WI
    Thanks for the suggestions to eliminate the siphoning. I'm going to check some of those fixes out. The plastic clip actually has a metal jacket or clip over the bottom of the plastic clip. I'm not sure if this was a measured response by AS to eliminate siphoning or for some other reason.

    As noted the Champion 4 is suppose to have the water level 1/2" below the riser. This would not have happened if I set my water level at the precise 1/2" level to start with. However, this isn't even close to the bottom of the clip. The clip is 1 1/2" below the riser and there is no way you are flushing with the water at this mark. I would like to think my problem is unusual (for some reason) otherwise AS would have used a different clip to ensure foolproof protection from "clip siphoning" (if this is even a term). Assuming people will not set their water level in the tank 1/8" too high (3/8" below riser instead of 1/2") does not seem reasonable.

    I had the siphoning stop at the 3/8" below riser mark, but I lowered it little more yesterday (now closer to the recommended 1/2" level) since there were a couple episodes of siphoning. I am surprised that this hasn't been a more frequent problem, but maybe there is something odd about my particular clip?? I'm assuming most people are not measuring to the nearest 1/16" to make sure the water level is perfect. I literally need to have my water level within an 1/8" tolerance for it to flush properly and not siphon.

    It would be beneficial if AS would emphasize the need for setting the water level very precisely (and explain why). The toilet flushes better with just a little more head and I'm sure a lot of people are like me and would error on the side of more than less water in the tank. AS Customer Service did not mention siphoning from the clip when I asked them about sources for water loss. I talked to one customer service agent that was interested in receiving feedback regarding anything I could find out about the source (like shutting water off and flushing to pinpoint problem at flush tower or tank gasket etc). I talked to another agent on a later call and there was no interest in providing any insight (other than sending parts). I was going to ask the agent about the possible siphoning but it was like talking to a tree so I didn't even bring it up. All in all the AS agents are knowledgeable about the toilets and are less frustrating than most other customer service industries.
     
  15. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    You could extend the overflow tube if that would not raise the potential water level up to the nut on the flush lever. Maybe AS could send you an extender.

    You could also make your own refill tube holder that fits atop/inside the tube.

    It seems to me that Kaboom Scrub Free and Fluidmaster Flush n Sparkle both come with anti-siphon clips, but I used the existing clips rather than the one that was packed. I don't remember what they looked like. I like the Kaboom since I reload with smaller slow-dissolving pool tablets, and it is easier to reload with the Kaboom. Both of them go in series with the refill tube, so they dose the bowel, but not the tank.
     
  16. pourhouse

    pourhouse New Member

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    Dec 10, 2013
    Location:
    Michigan
    I have a Champion 4 and the flush valve(s) are the worst design ever! I also fell for the "flush a bucket of golf balls" pitch, although I told the salesman "I usually never eat more than 2 golf balls at a time." My wife cringed, salesman had a blank stare.
    Anyway, that toilet flushed so hard you had to stand back or you could lose something you did not want flushed. After a short period of time, the dreaded flush tower would remain in the "UP" position wasting huge amounts of water. I contacted AS and they sent me the new and improved flush valve, which I installed immediately. For the past few months, the new improved, flush valve now remains in the "UP" position. The tank is clean, we have a water softener installed, no visible minerals, iron or other gunk to prevent valve from closing. I have tried waterproof grease and still nothing. After it ran most of yesterday while we were out, that AS new and improved flush valve is history! Going to install the Korky 5030BP as wjcandee has suggested several times in this thread.
    Please get it together AS!
     
  17. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    Let us know how it goes on your Champion. Korky sent me as a sample of that valve when they first brought it out, and it seems well-made and to function properly.

    It isn't rocket science, though. It's basically the same flush valve as on the Toto GMax, except it has a twist-to-adjust oversize overflow riser, which I think is a nice feature. They have that design of riser on their 2" flush valves, which I have installed on multiple older toilets. One won't fully-appreciate it unless they have a runaway fill valve, which is relatively-rare, but if they do, this thing would be a flood-saver.

    Here's a very-nerdy industry video that demonstrates the benefits of the wider riser on the 2" version:



    As Terry has pointed out multiple times on here, there is nothing meaningful about that Funnelator valve on the Champion in terms of flush performance; I personally think that the Champion 4 would be a much better toilet if it came with a flush valve like the one you are installing; most of the complaints we see on here about it concern that flush valve and difficulties replacing the rubber seal on it. Everyone can replace a flapper!
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2014
  18. pourhouse

    pourhouse New Member

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    Dec 10, 2013
    Location:
    Michigan
    REPLACEMENT REPORT, USING KORKY PARTS: Since I had to pull the AS tank, I also installed a 528MP Fill Valve as well as the 5030BP Flush Valve (although I think Korky dropped the "BP" and just calls it the 5030.)

    They were both fairly easy to install and adjust. The flush is different with the Korky, plenty of power still, but not the startling almost jet-like flush with the AS valve. It may well be my settings, as the flapper is adjustable and I may be using less water per flush. The Korky Fill Valve is much faster than the old AS one, and the Korky has an adjustment for the flow level so you can have the tank fill shut off at the same time as the bowl reaches the correct water level.

    I'm very pleased with the replacements and glad that I won't have to worry that the water has been running all day into our septic system from the old AS flush valve(s). I will update later if this thing won't flush a bucket of golf balls. I have to thank wjcandee for providing excellent advice once again. You really helped me out with obtaining the rare part I needed for my old Case, which is still working great by the way. Thanks to Terry for this great forum.
     
  19. wjcandee

    wjcandee Wise One

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    New York, NY
    Thanks for the report!! I couldn't be more delighted and we're always happy to help!

    I'm glad that Case part worked back in Januaryl! We really lucked out that week that one was there on that auction site at a non-extortionate price (by a seller who didn't realize the value of the unused part they had found)! Of course, you still had to pay through the nose for it, which was too bad, but at least it wasn't as bad as it could have been elsewhere. By the way, I really enjoyed your post about installing it and the guy calling you from Maine to say that folks in Maine don't throw anything away so to call him next time you need something old! :)

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2018
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