No Complaints... Yet...
I **WISH** I googled champion4 toilet before I decided to buy this piece of crap. I bought this model back in March of this year. No more than 4 months later, I started hearing the toilet cycle constantly.
On the flip side "I Did" Google the Champion 4. I was shopping for a new toilet in conjunction with gutting a bathroom for a total makeover. My first stop was the Consumer Reports magazine where I discovered in August of this year they rated the Champion 4 as the Number One Top Rated toilet! Imagine my surprise when I Googled it and found so many negative comments, i.e., piece of crap, junk, inferior product, constantly needing repair, tank leaks, tank wobbles, wish I could get my money back, extremely loud (wakes up my deaf cat)... etc., etc.
So... what did I do? I purchased one anyway! Why? Here's the deal.
As the story goes... when a person receives poor service at a restaurant or some other establishment they may tell as many as 10 people. However, when they receive good service they tell very few people about it. I decided all the negative comments on the Champion 4 complaints were from people with bad experiences and that the people that who liked the toilet or have had no problems would have had no reason to write a review. I also noticed a lot of complaints in these threads were on the Champion 3 and/or did not specify which Champion model they were complaining about. Also many of these threads are several years old, or are recent threads complaining about a Champion that was installed a year or two ago. I wanted information on 2009 Champion 4! I found this thread saying the toilet was purchased in March 2009! Hmmm... but I began to wonder it may have been purchased in March 2009... but when was it made? (more on this later)
Granted... I'll be the first to admit the Champion 4 has had its share of serious problems. Had I purchased one of the earlier models I'd be very upset. The poor design of the original flush tower, faulty seals, poor quality control during manufacturing (cracks, chips, poor glazing etc) the "reported", near impossible task of bolting the tank to the bowl due to a poorly designed tank seal... and the class action lawsuit were all red flags.
I should point out I am not a professional plumber. If I were I probably wouldn't install this toilet due to its history and to minimize the potential for dealing with unhappy customers. I am... a Handyman! I have completely gutted and flipped 14 houses (long before it was the thing to do) I do it all, plumbing, electrical, framing, cabinets, sheetrock, roofing etc. I've installed "dozens" of toilets. It's not rocket science but to the novice it can be a daunting task.
What I can't believe is this problem still prevails in 2009.
I wondered about this as well! Shouldn't the known problems have been resolved by now? So... armed with all my knowledge of the myriad of problems and/or defects I went to my local home improvement store. (Several of them in fact) Why several stores? Because my first course of action was to determine the date of manufacturer! If AS fixed the problems associated with earlier designs I wanted to make sure I got a new 2009 model. My first stop, a local Home Depot. The first box I checked had a AS sticker identifying the Date of Manufacture as May 2007! Holy crap! If I purchased that toilet it would make no difference that its was now almost 2010... I'd probably join the ranks of people posting complaints. Any design changes or improvements to the QC process implemented by American Standard after May 2007 would be missing from this model. They also had two in stock from June 2008. (none from 2009) The reason for mentioning this is... just because a person purchases a toilet in 2009 doesn't mean its the newest design with all the bugs worked out. NET: I ended up going to both Lowes and Home Depot before I hit the jackpot at the second Home Depot. I found a Champion 4 with a date of manufacture Oct 20 2009! It was less than one month old from the time I purchased it!
Upon getting it home I removed the tank and bowl. I first examined the bowl to verify the date of manufacturer. The box said Oct 25 2009... the underside of the bowl (left side just forward of the hole where the tank bolts to the bowl) you will find the date of manufacture. Date stamped Oct 20 2009. Close enough for me! (the 5 day difference would be the lag between the casting date and the ship date from the plant). I then closely inspected for any chips, cracks, or factory repairs that some people claim to have found. I found none! I then used my hand running my fingertips over every square inch of ceramic glazing. Other member have reported weak or missing glaze from portions of the toilet. This would be a disaster if the glaze was missing from anywhere inside the bowl. I then covered my hand with a thin piece of cloth and again rubbed over all the surfaces feeling for snags, ruff/dry spots... (FYI: Many years ago I ran a ceramics shop. Made thousands of slip castings, had several kilns, did tons of glazing and firings so I know what to look for. I was very pleased with how the greenware (pre-fired clay) had been cleaned and smoothed before firing. I only found one small speck (a grain of dirt or sand) trapped under the glaze up near the top of the rim inside the bowl. It was smooth so it won't trap particles. Not a problem.
I then inspected the flush valve: 1) To ensure it had the new grey tower design... and 2) to ensure it had the new "Blue" seal. I saw no signs of blistering or bubbles on the seal (although that problem seems to be reported after the toilet has been in service for a while) I will watch closely and report back with an update if I detect any type of seal failure.
Okay... everything checked out so I preceded with the installation. To be truthful I didn't find the installation to be any more difficult or troublesome than any other toilet I've installed. Yes, you need a deep socket to attach the tank to the bowl but one was included with the toilet so I don't understand all the whining about having to use a deep socket.
My next dreaded obstacle was the HUGE tank to bowl o-ring seal everyone likes to complain about... and/or... the dreaded "Tank Wobble"). After reading numerous threads and complaints about the two it became obvious that one effects the other. Yes... the gasket is super thick. (I couldn't help but wonder why a thinner silicone gasket wouldn't be just as good) Anyway... if you don't tighten the tank until it contacts the bowl then the rubber gasket will allow the tank to wobble. (DUH!) I even read the earlier thread about modifying the gasket with a router. Although I own several routers I figure the seal was designed this way for a reason (although it escapes me) and I was going to use it as designed or bust the toilet trying! As mentioned by others, American Standard customer service says the only way to prevent the wobble and leaks is to tightened the tank so it contacts the bowl "front and back". Response: "Don't worry about the tank or bowl breaking, just tighten the bolts evenly until the tank and bowl surfaces touch, then stop."
Believe it or not, using only my bare hand to grip the deep socket wrench included with the toilet... I was able to tighten the nuts enough to establish contact between the tank and the front of the bowl. However, the back of the tank was still about 3/8" away from making contact and I could no longer turn the wrench by hand. Using the hole in the deep socket I inserted a screwdriver for additional leverage. I alternated the tightening from left to right. I was determined to pull the tank down until it came in contact with the toilet bowl as instructed or until it busted into pieces. I can tell you it was getting very tight so I stopped to put on some safety glasses. I felt I was tightening the bolts beyond where I would have normally stopping in fear of breaking the toilet. But... a couple more turns on each nut and Bingo, I had tank to bowl contact, front and back!
Let me tell you (regardless of what you may have read in other threads)... if you tighten until the tank touches the bowl front and back there is NO TANK WOBBLE... NONE! (It feels as solid as some one piece toilets I've installed) That said, I don't care for convex curve of the tank. It encroaches the upper back when sitting, forcing you to sit straight up.
Based on all the bad stuff I've read about this toilet I crossed my fingers as I turned on the water. Nothing. The tank filled and the water shut off crisply and completely. No leaking valve. No refilling. No leaks. No flooded floors! Tank filled I held my breath as I flushed my Champion 4 for the first time. I was waiting for the "Deafening Ear Splitting Klunk" I've read so much about. I had my phone by my side in the event my neighbors called to find out what the loud bang was. Yes... I was expecting the worse. I pushed the handle and whoosh, phoomp. That's it? Are you kidding me! I don't know what other people are hearing with their Champion 4's but mine is one quiet toilet! The sound of the valve dropping closed is a soft muted "frump"... like someone dropping a pillow in the next room.
The toilet has now been installed for 7 days. I've done my impersonation of Uncle Floyd and his 300 pounds slamming into the tank as he drops down to the seat. If it was going to break I wanted to break it now so I could claim it broke while I was tightening the bolts. Nothing broke.. and still no leaks.
NET:
No defects in toilet or glazed ceramic finish
No leaks of any kind.
No Wobbly Tank
No loud Klunk when flushing
No problems
I find it to be a great toilet and it does a super job flushing.
That said... as mentioned earlier... I'll be sure to update this thread if problems of any kind develop. Believe me I can complain with the best of them.
