Am I Getting Hosed???

[myrightnut]

Hello all,

I just thought I would put this out there to see if the quote is out of line.

I spoke to a plumber, about installing the drains, tub and shower base and roughing in the hot and cold supply lines.

As we spoke I informed him that I would break-up the concrete floor, dig all the trenches and pour the concrete, cut and repair any holes that are required in the walls and do all the framing for the tub, do all the finsihes etc. I have also gone and done all the leg work and paid for all the permits.

When we spoke today, he came back with a quote for $3000.00!!!

Am I wrong to be shocked? I mean, I am doing all the "grunt work" and all the repairs after words.

Your thoughts would be appreaciated.

 

[Jadnashua]

It cost me about $1400 to have them move supplies, vents, and install the tub and drain.

took two guys about a full day.

Hard to say if that is a good deal or not, somewhat depends on where you live and how complex things are. WIth the cost of copper these days, that adds up pretty quick, too.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Amopower]

Funny how the quote is such a round number at 3 grand. what a coincidence that the labor and parts would add up like that.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Any time you get a number like that from a plumber.........you are getting a "Don't waste my time because you are price shopping me" quote and the intention is for you to be shocked and not even consider the number,


let alone be able to use the number as a guide for the work to be done.

You may not like it......but it is offensive sometimes for a customer to ask of someone's time and include the fact that they are not certain they are going to use them.

I stopped this situation awhile ago by not even taking on jobs like the above. Price shopping is something I only allow minutes taken away from my normal activities of the day, not gas, time, and the likelihood that I'm used as a guide for a handyman or fly by night to get the job from the get go.

 

[Kordts]

amopower,
would it make you feel better if the quote was 2999.93 or 3001.23? To the original poster, it's real hard for me to quote jobs online. We can't see the job or the degree of difficulty. If you don't like the number, call another local plumber.

 

[Terry]

Without seeing the job it's hard to say, it seems like a lot for just a tub roughin. You sure he's not doiing more than that?

I would get another bid before you get too far along.

Most rough-in plumbers I know will do a lot more than one plumbing fixture for $3000
If he were plumbing for a lav, toilet and tub, it would seem ballpark

 

[vaplumber]

Wow! And I thought some of the jobs Ive quoted were high! If he were breaking the concrete himself and laying out the trenches, then Id say go for it. For my take on estimates, sometimes there is no choice other than to charge for them. With winter on our heels, I dont have enough time to get to all of my regular customers, but I wont turn down an estimate. Around here, if youve taken a construction loan, or borrowed for a remodel, the lenders want an idea of what every thing is going to cost. Without an estimate you cant provide a lender with this info, and in turn no body gets the job. Due to way too much work, and not enough working hours, I have recently started charging 1 hour for major estimates, and if I get to come back and do the work, I give the customer that hour back in credit. This usually works out well some times for even simple repairs (unless it is some thing that I can quote over the phone without seeing, in which case I will do). When I explain this to the customer, Im usually told just to come on out and fix it. The biggest complaint around here with estimates is turn around time. When you do an estimate on a job, the customer doesnt want to wait for weeks on end to hear the result. Ive found that having a fast turn around usually gets me the job even if I do come in slightly higher, and I usually have the work done before the other guy even bothers putting together his estimate. If I dont want to do a job, or cant fit a job in, or even if I cant spare the time to give an estimate, I just tell the customer "hey, there's no way that I can fit this in to my schedule, but you might try so and so up the street". Its all about customer relations, and making the next guy feel as if he matters. Ive watched many very qualified pro's close up shop and sell every thing off at auction simply because of the attitude that "this is my shop, and I'll do what I want to do, and I'll do it my way, and my way only".

 

[hj]

bid

It seems high, but we do not know the actual circumstances, your local wages and conditions, or material costs. I always round off the price. To give a price of $2,999.99 implies that you have figured every fitting you are going to use and the time down to the minute, which is ridiculous. Although on one large, over a million dollar, job the general contractor did come up with a bid that ended in twenty five cents. A competing bid was exactly the same right down to the quarter. They flipped a coin, and the company I was subbing to got the job. He framed the coin and hung it on his wall.

 

[myrightnut]

Hi all,

Wow, thanks for the response...

First off, just to clarify a few things, I wasn't price shopping. This plumber came highly recommended from a few people and I had seen his work which looked great. So I was ready to use him.

I am a firm believer in "you get what you pay for"... and having done the tendering of MANY jobs in building construction and now Municiple I know that the lowest bid tends to be the one with the most problems. However, that said, I have also had many jobs where the Mid to Highest bid turned out to be horrible also.

I think the reason why I asked the question too was trying to find out if Im in the ball park... for instance, I went out and priced the material costs for the drain work and venting... from the Home Depot, I came out with $250.00. Now I know that the copper costs are high right now but even at $11.00 for 6' lengths of 1/2", I figured out to be an additional $200.00 for the supply lines. I am supplying all the fixtures and taps etc. so lets say for sake of argument, $800.00 for materials when all is said and done (fudge factor worked in) that means $2,200.00 in Labour.... with me helping.

The major problem is that our current budget is at $12,000.00 for the job... I'm almost at $10,000.00 and still have tilling, drywalling and lighting to do... my tilling cost will be about $2000.00 as it is.

Oh well... I think Im going to try this on my own.. The building inspector for my area is VERY helpfull and hopefully he can guide me where I need it. I have redone my kitchen on my own, with amazing results... hopefully all will work out.

Thanks again.

 

[Rancher]

Part of the problem is that you are wanting to part of the job yourself, so now he has to rely on you doing your part, on time and not causing delays that you will then blame him for, also if he is not backfilling around his plumbing, something you may do could cause a failure in the future. I suspect he quoted you what he would have charged if he had to the the entire job. Do it yourself, then you'll know how to do it the next time.

Rancher

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

As mentioned above....

This is common for some to do the grunt work. What happens is that they litter your phone system with phone calls asking 1000 questions that are remedial at best. It goes from being friendly at the beginning to I wish I never took the job.

Then you go to home to layout the groundwork and they didn't slot the floor where you marked it because they hit a tough spot or support pad under the concrete. Then they ask if I could work around it???? That statement alone entails more work, more cutting which of course the homeowner now has to do because he's trying to avoid your charges of heavy labor.

Now the plumber is leaving the job because of implications. And of course more phone calls during the drive away because the homeowner is apologizing on the other end of the phone saying he forgot to ask.


I've been there and done that in this business. If you think I'm slanted on my attitude regarding scenarios like above, you're damn straight, I am. I used to do nothing but these kinds of jobs where chop saw and jackhammer were my friend and I only took on the larger remodel/bath addition jobs. Service calls at that point of time were a nuisance to my schedule. I've learned....along with physical limitations guiding my expertise to more elite avenues.

I sympathize with the one who wants to do it and save a buck.....but budgets mean nothing to me or the plumber. I don't care what ceiling has been arrived on any job; I'm charging what I charge to do my work with no inference to any outside circumstance the customer is imposing on me.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Oh well... I think Im going to try this on my own.. The building inspector for my area is VERY helpfull and hopefully he can guide me where I need it. I have redone my kitchen on my own, with amazing results... hopefully all will work out.

You sound competent to do the work and I would use the benefit of sites like this to your advantage to get help on the layout of the DWV system. Water lines are simple in regards to the crucial correctness of the drains/venting.



Hey, How come you cannot copy and paste quotes on this forum. Either you catch it from the go or add another reply.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

sounds like a good hoseing.......

sometimes a lot of plumbers would rather
just sit in the shop than to get involved with a
do-it yourselfer....


3k sounds like its a little high if you are supplying the tub and accessories 1500-- 2000 sounds more like it


Now ---no offence meant towards you here,,,,
I dont know how your conversation went,

I dont know if you haggled with him, asked the fellow
if he would do it by time and materials, ect, ect....

asked him what his hourley rate was, if he could do it
on Satrudays, evenings, or just on full moon nights ect....

So ...I dont know how tence things got between you both....



but occasionally I can just feel or sense over the phone that
I am about to step into a very large pile of
steaming dog crap...


and I will bid the job much higher than it would normally
be worth just because of what I hear over the phone...

for pain and suffering...



so get some other estimates.

 

[Cookie]

My 2 cents worth.
If I don't want to do a job, I just say so. I say, " I can't right now." And, I usually leave it go at that. I could ask for more money to turn the person off, but, then; am I burning a bridge in doing so? Might be down the road, I might want to do a job for him, or he might send me someone I might want to do a job for; but, if I play a game with him, I might end up just hurting myself. Honesty men, always be honest.

Plus, why put that other person in a position where he has no idea what you are doing, then, starts to have to waste his time in finding out if that quote was a fair one, etc. I believe firmly, in my humble opinion, what goes around, comes around. Not to fail to mention, once he finds out, you hurt your professional reputation. He will talk. Everyone talks. Sometimes, in a salon, over drinks, in the office, in the yard talking to a neighbor while mowing the grass...the opportunities to get your name tarnished are endless.

 

[ToolsRMe]

I had a similar situation.

The plumber I was using was a bit upset that I was doing the grunt work. "Hey, that's work you're taking from me," he said. Sigh.

Nonetheless, I know him to be very competent and honest. We resolved the issue by paying him by the hour. He estimated two days of work: about $1600.

I was suprprised but I said OK.

He worked hard those two days. Venting was a bear and so was running the drain in a somewhat cramped crawl space.

I suggest you find out _all_ the work that he thinks that he has to do. You might be surprised, as I was, at all the extras and gotchas that often get in the way.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

My 2 cents worth.
If I don't want to do a job, I just say so. I say, " I can't right now." And, I usually leave it go at that. I could ask for more money to turn the person off, but, then; am I burning a bridge in doing so? Might be down the road, I might want to do a job for him, or he might send me someone I might want to do a job for; but, if I play a game with him, I might end up just hurting myself. Honesty men, always be honest.

Plus, why put that other person in a position where he has no idea what you are doing, then, starts to have to waste his time in finding out if that quote was a fair one, etc. I believe firmly, in my humble opinion, what goes around, comes around. Not to fail to mention, once he finds out, you hurt your professional reputation. He will talk. Everyone talks. Sometimes, in a salon, over drinks, in the office, in the yard talking to a neighbor while mowing the grass...the opportunities to get your name tarnished are endless.

This plumber came highly recommended from a few people and I had seen his work which looked great

I see your point, clearly. There are honest plumbers that are refined in their actions towards others to prevent a downfall in such a way to protect that very reputation. Like I stated previously, I've walked this gammut before in dealing with the homeowner trying to cut costs. They are high difficulty jobs and no one will tell me that isn't true.

I've put in print, I've answered the phone, I've drumrolled the high bids to deter anyone that "may" be using me as a guide to have someone work at a lower rate. On the internet, my knowledge is free. In my business life, I'm running what is my career. Since I'm being a screwoff in front of the computer today it feels good to not be in the field.....but only for a short time.

There are those who think just like me, they just don't have the balls to put it out there. If my attitude was such a harmful situation to my future prospects, why is it that 4 calls came in just today, 3 were referrals? Why is my phone always ringing....with the woman or man saying, "Yeah you did work for so-n-so and they gave me your number. They said you did a really good job and we was hoping that you could do some work for us." < Effin priceless when I hear that. That means I've served not only my profession but my community very well.

I just filled my entire week for next week. Life is good and everyone is happy. Those who price shop me or I feel they are using me as a gauge can bad mouth me to no end. I am the better for protecting my best interests. Got too many satisified customers to allow a select few to stop the train a rolling.


Being in business and dealing with John Q Public can create a numbing effect. I won't save the world and the sea lions by being a catch-all to everyone that embarks on dialing my numbers.

 

[Terry]

I've lost bids before to other contractors that left quite a few things off the bid.
When I talked to the homeowners later, they wound up paying the same or more, but were constantly surprised at all the little "add-ons", and the "I didn't think of that" billings they were getting from the other contractor.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what should go into a complete job.

When a homeowner helps, you do have to add for that. They can slow you down, with the questions they have.
I work fastest when it's very quiet and I'm undistracted.
If someone wants a lesson in plumbing, everything has to slow down.

 

[myrightnut]

WOW WOW WOW!

Ok! Again just to set the record straight... EVERY THING WAS ABOVE BOARD! The Plumber was fine with me doing the "Grunt work" and said that he was busy and didn't have time to break up the concrete, repair the walls etc etc... We walked through everything very carefully and agreed that it would help him out alot! He didn't like doing the concrete and I do. I told him I was interested in learning as much as I can, I have alot of respect for trades people since I work with them so much.

There was never a pissing match here or issues with hourly rates, me being late with stuff, doing the work on weekends etc... I did not call him non stop, with questions issues etc. in fact most of my discussions regarding the job have been with the building inspectors.

The Plumber made no bones about me helping or learning in the process.

The main question was basicly if a quote like this is in the ballpark, or inflated because he is too busy, or was I niaeve (SP?) in thinking that this cost would have been about half.

To finalize, the building inspector has been by to review my work today and seems very pleased so far so good... doing it myself, although stressfull, it is very satisfying... I'm hopeing that after the final inspection for the underground work I may actually get to pour my floor in two days.

(BTW if you can't tell yet my spelling sucks!... I Didn't go into engineering for the spelling )

 

[Amopower]

I'd feel better if I saw a quote for $3000 even and the plumber showed me how he came up with the estimate, not just something he shoots off the top of his head. You want to quote something like that you better have some math and parts/labor estimates to back it up.

amopower,
would it make you feel better if the quote was 2999.93 or 3001.23? To the original poster, it's real hard for me to quote jobs online. We can't see the job or the degree of difficulty. If you don't like the number, call another local plumber.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I'd feel better if I saw a quote for $3000 even and the plumber showed me how he came up with the estimate, not just something he shoots off the top of his head. You want to quote something like that you better have some math and parts/labor estimates to back it up.

And then the customer now knows the material factor.....now it's time to go whittle down the labor factor with the first guy leaving without work.

Trying to figure out if people who object to this type of bidding are pissed because they can't gauge off of the number or they know the plumber is fully aware of what to expect in a situation like this.


Every job I did involving the customer doing some of the work, always ended up with critic time at the end when I started compiling the extras on for the extras that were done.....and the customer assumed that it was part of the job. If it leads astray from the bid it is a charge.

And then I hear those famous words in plumbing, "Well you said it was going to cost this much....and you are telling me that it is what?"

You lose that customer right there because the customer always wants a good deal and they feel that "while you're there" you should start throwing all the extras in with it.

Don't worry folks, there are some hungry plumbers out there that will take your jobs even if they don't make money; they just blend it all in with the keeping the lights on at the shop. There are guys that moonlight all the time working for cash that will get you on the straight and narrow. Those who play by the rules though must be compensated for time involved and all dealings around jobs.....otherwise it is just a wash.