60's Vintage Cast Iron Shower & Toilet Drain Relocate Under Concrete

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by Paul Fithian, May 19, 2021.

  1. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    I am remodeling a downstairs bathroom and want to relocate the shower and toilet drains covered in concrete. House was built in 1960 and has cast iron plumbing.

    Is my routing assumption correct on how this would have been laid out when built? The vertical cast iron pipe to the left is the main drain from the house.

    My plan is to cut out the concrete, excavate as needed, and install new toilet/shower drains with PVC. I will connect to the existing cast iron reducing "T" with new PVC piping from the new drains. Toilet drain is now 13"/22" from the walls, I will move this to 12"/15" . A new Schluter shower will be installed, enabling a larger shower than the 36"x36" unit that was there.

    Any other advice before I break concrete?

    Drain Run-Relocation.jpg
     
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Occupation:
    Plumber
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    12"/15" to finished walls for the toilet? What size is the new shower? Most that are longer are also not as deep as the 36" showers. Common are 48x34 and 60 x 34 or 32
    Without taking out the floor, it's a bit hard to say how it was plumbed, buy maybe like the lines you have there. While you have walls open, it may be a good idea to replace the lav drain too, and the shower valve.
     
  3. Sponsor

    Sponsor Paid Advertisement

     
  4. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    Thanks Terry, greatly appreciated. For sure a new shower valve and lav drain will be installed.

    I am using a 48" x 48" Schluter shower kit, final dimensions will likely be 48" x 42"

    The 12" behind/15" side toilet drain location is per many references for rough in dimensions of a toilet flange. Should it be different?

    See rough sketch below of what I want to end up with.

    Remodeled Bathroom Layout.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  5. Tuttles Revenge

    Tuttles Revenge In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    15" is the finished dimension not the rough. 12" can vary from manufacture. Our toto office toilet is 12" to the rough wall, 11 from finish with about an inch of tile build up and it still has a 1" air space behind the tank. Most plumbers will err on the side of caution for the 12" rough dimension and add an extra 1/2" unless we know what the finished surfaces will be and we know the walls are square and plumb.

    PS.. have you tested that flooring and mastic for asbestos? They look like the 9" squares that commonly contained asbestos.
     
  6. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    Thanks Tuttles! I removed ceramic tiles from this floor, they replaced the original vinyl more than 30 years ago.

    Any thoughts on the plumbing run?
     
  7. Tuttles Revenge

    Tuttles Revenge In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    You're going to cut about a 2ft square of concrete at the shower and the toilet.. I would lay out my cut/hole in the concrete so that the furthest edge is right where you need the fitting to be and the bulk of the cut is over the old pipe, so you have lots of pipe to choose from if a hub is in just the wrong place. Then with the holes open, cut the cast iron and install new plastic. Since your layout is basically the same, you're just extending/modifying trap arms. I would cut in a new cast tee for the sink and run that in plastic too.
     
  8. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    Made great progress this evening. I cut a rectangular slot with a diamond blade on the circular saw, then chipped out the perimeter with a Bauer 1641 and chisel bit.

    After that the concrete broke up in big sections.

    6920F9EC-D618-4E85-8341-7D42ECA672DA.jpeg 5A2C4F93-2205-4C8E-9923-8BC852C38C85.jpeg
     
    Tuttles Revenge likes this.
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Occupation:
    Plumber
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I'm lazy. I hire a guy that brings out a wet saw. No dust that way either.
     
    Tuttles Revenge likes this.
  10. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    Cleaned it up a bit more to have a look at a good spot to make the transition from cast iron to PVC. I have good access to the flange just under the cut, lucky choice on the cut line!

    Best way to remove this is by drilling out the lead around the circumference as much as possible and picking out the lead/oakem, right? Any other suggestions?

    The P-trap should have no other support on the bowl end and will come right out when the pipe is removed from the hub described above, right?

    Shower P-Trap Before Removal.jpg
    Shower Drain Hub1.jpg
    Shower Drain Hub2.jpg
     
  11. Tuttles Revenge

    Tuttles Revenge In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    You can drill out the lead and use an insert donut Or since that pipe looks in really good shape, saw off the pipe about 2" from that hub and use a shielded adapter coupling / Mission Band. You're going to want to cut the pipe around that area regardless just to have it out of the way for drilling the lead so you can make that choice at that time.

    Yea, once you cut that pipe from the hub, the trap will be completely loose.

    Any deeper with that saw blade and you'd have cut into your hub.
     
  12. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    Thanks again, Tuttles!

    I do want to remove all of the pipe going into the hub, as I did nick the pipe with the jackhammer when chiseling out the concrete. You can see this on the second picture at about the 1:00 position.

    I fear this may crack and leak down the road. My BIL claims to have a cast iron snap cutter, I'll get it later today and snap the pipe just outside of the hub to get better access to drilling out the lead. Then use 2" hub to 2" PVC donut.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  13. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    There is no p-trap, because the trap is part of the toilet. The thing the toilet connects to is a "closet flange" or "toilet flange". It is the closet flange's job to hold down the toilet. The flange should ideally sit on the finished floor , and it will be screwed into the floor to hold the flange itself down.

    You can use a 4x3 closet elbow or a medium elbow if you are going into the cast iron with 3 inch plastic. The 4x3 closet elbow can take an inside 4 inch or outside 4 inch (if you leave space) closet flange. It is possible to use a compression closet flange, rather than glued.

    Here is a picture of the spigot (same size as a 4 inch plastic pipe) top version with dimensions.
    [​IMG]
    There is also a version with a hub on top for deeper installs.

    Get a digital caliper with inside-measurement jaws. That may be important for ordering the right Fernco Donut.
     
  14. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    Thanks Reach4, but I haven't gotten to the toilet drain yet. I'm working now on the shower drain cast iron P-trap to drain connection.

    Good tip on measuring, I have a set of calipers and can take an accurate ID measurement on the hub for the right donut to 2" PVC.

    Regarding a new toilet flange, any suggestions on which one to use?
     
  15. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    A pro would usually use a 3x4 glue-in closet flange (glues outside of 3-inch or inside 4-inch), ideally with a stainless ring. Fearing I would mess up the gluing, I would lean toward an outside compression flange like Code Blue, or an inside compression flange.
     
  16. Tuttles Revenge

    Tuttles Revenge In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    We only use 4x3 closet flanges with the flange that glues inside of 4" pipe with stainless steel rings. The thing to look out for is the depth of "pipe" size of the fitting below the floor. The closet flange fittings can be a bit longer than a normal spigot fitting so they reach down longer into the closet flange and can hit the part of the 90 where it bends.. then you're stuck. So make sure to measure total needed depth and cut off what is beyond that point from the flange fitting.

    https://www.siouxchief.com/docs/def...flange---3x4-conn---tko.pdf?sfvrsn=71b13a37_8
     
  17. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    I cut the concrete around the toilet flange and excavated back to a horizontal hub last night.

    I plan to remove the pipe at this hub and tie in with PVC pipe and toilet flange to the new location. Any other suggestions?

    For the short vertical pipe with the toilet flange, distance between the top edge of the hub to the floor is 7โ€.

    CBF5330A-A85C-4327-AE56-E7F4F7F8494E.jpeg
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  18. Tuttles Revenge

    Tuttles Revenge In the Trades

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    When measuring for elevations, the center line is best to use because that is consistent through all type of product.. A cast hub has no known or standard diameter. The center line never changes. But in this case that makes the floor level about 10" above the center line which is well beyond the reach of a 4x3 spigot x hub closet flange. Instead use the 4x3 Hub x Hub closet bend and a short length of 4" PVC up through your finished floor that you can trim before you tile or after. The flange I linked above will glue into the 4" pipe after you trim the height.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2013
    Location:
    IL
    There is a 4x4 inch Code Blue flange that reaches down farther, but unfortunately I cannot find a dimensional drawing.

    This closet bend has a hub on top: [​IMG]

    You can glue a 4 inch pipe into the hub.
     
  20. Paul Fithian

    Paul Fithian New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2021
    Location:
    Long Beach, IN
    Pulled the 2โ€ shower P-trap and drain line out, not that hard with patience and a good drill bit.

    Pipe was half full of gunk.
    2A472F64-7A3C-4266-B1FA-231D28E49217.jpeg F79301A8-0735-4795-A06C-736FB8453FA7.jpeg
     
    Tuttles Revenge likes this.
  21. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Occupation:
    Retired Systems engineer for defense industry.
    Location:
    New England
    What isn't evident is the presence of any vent lines...both the toilet and the shower need them to pass current codes. Since you're replacing the plumbing and moving things, it needs to be brought up to current codes. The vent might be there, but it's not evident from the pictures supplied. Keep in mind that a line, once used as a drain vertically, cannot be used as a vent. SO, that vertical one there now, might have been used as the vent when the place was built, but would not count as a vent today. Wet venting only works on the horizontal on the same floor, so isn't an option for the vertical component. If that vertical run doesn't have any waste coming into it, that is your vent...hopefully, that's the case, otherwise, running a new vent line up gets a bit more complicated.

    For the Kerdi shower pan to work properly, you do need to ensure that the slab after repairs is both very flat AND level. If not, consider making your pan out of deck mud versus using their foam pan...it will save you money, and can handle any slight variances in the floor and the centering of the drain. Check out www.johnbridge.com and www.schluter.com for help on tiling and building your shower.
     
Similar Threads: 60's Vintage
Forum Title Date
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Wolverine Brass, Stuck Shower Stem with no bonnet- 60's Apr 1, 2014
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Looking for vintage 12" center shower setup - having a hard time finding anything Jan 21, 2020
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Kohler Centra, Can you help me identify this vintage Kohler bathroom faucet? Sep 21, 2019
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Vintage apron bathtub - drain and overflow installation Aug 29, 2018
Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog Help Identifying Vintage Faucet Seat Aug 30, 2017

Share This Page