Small hose in toilet tank - why?

[Ballvalve]

Seems like the siphon will suck the bowl dry no matter the tank size.

So lets pull the tube from a NEW 1.2 flush toilet and see what happens.

And that makes him correct to put the tube into the tank on HIS toilet.

 

[WellHead]

If it wasn't for construction workers, engineers would be having coffee with their wifes explaining how the entire world out there isn't as smart as their husband, while she was calling the plumber to fix their plumbing.

Ha haa, if it was not for Engineers, construction workers would have nothing to construct (Arhcitectual Engineers) and nothing to use to construct, no machinery, no tools, materials, concrete, reticulated water, the list goes on and on.

If it was not for Engineers, you would still be chasing rabbits with a tree branch and eating them raw, unless lucky enough to stumble upon a fire started by lightning.

The first Engineers were the people who realized that rubbing together two sticks of different density wood, they could make fire wherever and whenever they wanted.

Following those were the people who realized that striking a certain kind of stone in a certain fashion they could make very sharp cutting tools and weapons to hunt prey and have a good hot meal.

If it was not for Engineers, you would have nothing other than cold raw meat and vegetables and live in a cave.
Who designs the machinery that makes the machinery that makes the car you drive? Mechanical Engineers.
Who extracts the Gasoline to fuel the car you drive? Chemical Engineers.
Who designs the computers that allows you to make silly comments in Public? Electronic Engineers.
Who designs the methods to facilitate the transportation of millions of package deliveries every day? Production Engineers.
Who designs the roads you drive your cars on safely at speeds that were only dreamed about 100 years back? Civil Engineers.
Who designs the bridges that allows you to drive from Miami to Key West in complete safety and comfort? Structural Engineers.
Who designs the ships that bring you the tools and materials you need to plumb? Marine Engineers.

I could take a pee or a dump in the woods and still not need a Plumber. LOL

Yeah, maybe you are correct, who needs Engineers.

OK, I am outa here for now. Thanks for the information, but that little hose stays filling my tank instead of wasting water.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[WellHead]

I'm no toilet engineer, but for gods sake tell me how water gets in the bowl if the flapper is held shut and the hose is disconnected....

BV, perhaps a new pair of reading glasses will help you. I said, "as soon as the flapper shut, I held it down." I did not say I held it down right from the get go. Geeze you plumbing guys have poor eyesight. LOL

All moot now though.

 

[Ballvalve]

I understood that. And I agree YOUR unit is wasting water with the tube in the overflow.

Have you found out HOW your tank fills?

..........................................

As to Engineers, the Anasazi did a damn good job building in cliff overhangs, and I doubt any of them went to the university of Arizona.

And I dare an engineer to come up with an igloo unless he went to the University of the north pole and lived with the natives in 1800.

I dont recall any engineers on the Nebraska plains designing straw houses.

Point being, there are a plethora of bad engineers just like plumbers and electricians. Judge a man by his works, not his credentials.
The world is full of educated idiots [a portion of a famous old Calvin Coolidge adage] -like the ones that designed the Verazzano straits flying bridge, and the idiotic double nutted hanging platforms in the Hilton that killed many dozens of people.

And who designed the San Francisco Bay bridge that opened up in a mild earthquake and sent dozens of cars into the water? And required it to be replaced about 50 years ahead of schedule?

And who designed the stacked overpass in Oakland that collapsed in an earthquake that crushed hundreds?

I guess some engineers skipped history class about the 1906 earthquake and forgot to go visit the entirely visible san andreas fault.

Who designed the autos with exploding gas tanks and cars without seat belts and steel dash boards?

Who decided to blow up 40 or 50 nuclear weapons in air in Nevada? Engineers! A bit more responsibility than a plumber.

Who designed the Solyndra solar plant to make a un-economical product in a NEW building when thousands stand empty?

When engineers goof, they do it BIG. Beter vet them very carefully and have a team of opinions for a new bridge.

I think the last great engineers were the Romans and the cathedral builders. And most of it was in their DNA.

 

[WellHead]

And I dare an engineer to come up with an igloo unless he went to the University of the north pole and lived with the natives in 1800.

But that's my point, the Engineers came from those Pioneers who developed methods to perfect the structures and then document the process so that other could learn and develop advanced designs. The Inuit in igloo design were the Engineers of their time.

Too many other things to really respond to, but people are human and humans make mistakes. Well all the ones I know of do, me included. It is somewhat facetious to cite failed structures and designs. To be balanced, if you are going to cite failures, one should always cite successes and I am sure that ratio would be very unbalanced values. Something like 100,000,000 : 1, success to failure of course.

There are often many more issues involved beyond the control of the Design Engineer and the design they are developing. Budgetary, Legal, Urgency of Need, Deadlines and of course the worst cause of shortened development times, Investors. That list too could go on almost forever.

OK, so the placement of the gas tank on two models of motor vehicles was not the best option, but probably for budgetary reasons they were forced to make the most of what they had to work with. Rent the movie "Class Action (1991)" with Gene Hackman, risk assessment is real and in our ever day lives.

OK, the toilet: Well, I assume you meant "how the bowl fills" and not "the tank fills." Wasting a few flushes and watching stuff closely, it appears the holes at the top ring of the bowl reduce the flow sufficiently to store enough water for filling the bowl. There is a hole at the front-base of the bowl about 1-1/4" diameter and a solid jet of water scoots the poop'n'paper out in the first few seconds of the flush.

There is a small amount of clear flow back from the "S" bend as the water level stabilizes about an inch deep. The top ring holes continue to to allow water to drain into the bowl to refill to the stain line. It all looks and works perfectly -- by design -- dare I say??? LOL It seems to be the model of efficiency and not to get too gross, there have been some pretty gnarly volumes to dispose of at times and we have never yet had to flush twice. Well, I may white-lie there, I recall trying to dispose of a black-Widow spider that hung on for four full flushes before making the big swim to the septic tank. She couldn't get out and I was not going in after her. Ahh, country living and things that crawl in the house.

I suspect the top-ring holes have been precisely sized to "well" sufficient water in the top ring, while the Jet-hole takes care of scooting the P'n'P.

Oh, and as a parting shot, the hanging walkway was not designed to carry the number of people that was on it. The permit and rating for it (as with Elevators etc) was clearly marked at both ends, there was almost four times that number of people -- AND -- they all rushed to one side to see a show going on below. Anything will fail when stressed beyond reasonable design limits. If one can get seventeen people into a Volkswagen beetle, then I am certain you could squeeze sixty people into an elevator licensed to carry ten.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O-u9SlnhOo

 

[RickS]

I once did some consulting work for a guy with a Doctorate in Electrical Engineering. He was selling LED signs to bus companies, and these things kept burning out. In theory, there was no possible way for a 12V system to burn out these signs. I earned a very quick $500 by pointing out to him that 12V systems run at 13.6-14.2V. So yes, there are many engineers who are detached from the practical world.

I do in this case agree with the MechEng guy. I just can't see why the insertion depth would have any effect on anything.

 

[Ballvalve]

Oh, and as a parting shot, the hanging walkway was not designed to carry the number of people that was on it. The permit and rating for it (as with Elevators etc) was clearly marked at both ends, there was almost four times that number of people -- AND -- they all rushed to one side to see a show going on below. Anything will fail when stressed beyond reasonable design limits. If one can get seventeen people into a Volkswagen beetle, then I am certain you could squeeze sixty people into an elevator licensed to carry ten.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O-u9SlnhOo

Reply Reply With Quote Blog this Post

Maybe we have a different event. This was a series of suspended platforms in the lobby of a hotel, and during construction the builders asked for a design change to make asembly easier. It was approved, but it was a fantastic error that placed three or 4 times the stress on each platform connection. In the original design, any shift of weight would have not caused the catastrophic failure that occured.

I dont have the paper easily available, for a better description, but its used in classrooms now for a classic and tragic flaw in design.

Looks like toilet makers are wasting a lot of water with that tube too.

And I'll bet an elevator designed for 10 would still safely carry 60, or simply shut itself down via sensors or clutches.

 

[RRW]

What a fun thread! This reminds me of times back on Compuserve when engineers tried to convince me that a car hitting a solid wall sustained less damage than another car at the same speed hitting an identical car head on at the same speed. Good for grins.

 

[Terry]

The tube in the tank depends on several factors

The engineer that asked the question has already bought an aftermarket flush valve and flapper that were perhaps not the right one. Since he didn't post a picture of the toilet or the parts inside, we can only guess how he might have mickey moused it.

Normally since 1992, which the engineer has said doesn't count since his is newer, Dooh!
Anyway since 1992 it has been the goal to finish filling the bowl just as the tank completes it's fill. They should time out to stop at the same time.
With some toilets, that means no fill tube from the fill valve, and with others, the bowl doesn't completely fill unless the fill tube is directed into the overflow. Korky makes a nice replacement called MaxPerformance that allows adjustment of the bowl filling.

The plumbers should have never mentioned the siphon effect to an engineer though and I blame hj for that. Too many words explaining to an engineer causes headaches, at least for those with the "mind of an engineer".

By the way, I just received my first class tickets to visit Kohler with my son. It should be a nice trip and perhaps we will get to meet with their engineer again. The last time we met was at the Keg in Bellevue for lunch. I've never gone first class before so this should be nice. We go a day early to visit Lambeau field on a tour. We're big football fans so this will be fun.

Terry Love and his son Jamie Love.

The fill tube down the overflow problem is common knowledge. We mention that not for the engineer that asked the question, his bowl is working as he likes anyway. It's for the others that read the thread and they should know the correct way, not the "mind of an engineer way". By the way, I think a "different" engineer invented the little air gappy thing that prevents siphoning. Either that or some plumber pointed that one out.

Aftermarket flapper and flush valves commonly come to work with 3.5 gallon toilets. It's a good idea to make sure you pick the right parts for your bowl, whether it's an ancient old dog, a new dog, or a good dog.

Most of the toilets I sell time out perfectly and flush well. Some do it with Flappers, with towers, and with pressure assist units. There are a lot of ways to do this. Putting a hand sink over the tank and letting soap into the tank water would not be my first choice though. When you introduce goo like that, you're going to have problems. Didn't they teach you that in Home Ec 101? Keep things clean, and they will take care of you too.

 

[WellHead]

the builders asked for a design change to make asembly easier. It was approved, but it was a fantastic error that placed three or 4 times the stress on each platform connection.

The problem I would have in citing that, is were the changes approved by the original designer or an on-staff Engineer? Thanks for some thought provoking responses, I will depart until I have another vexatious plumbing question.

There's a lot of irrational white-noise-static on this thread, but at least BV, you seem to be a sensible and reasonable person.

Not sure why most of that static has to be so negative, alpha dog, pissing highest up the wall and totally outside the original question, but I guess Thomas Gray summed it up best.

 

[Jimbo]

There are three possible paths for water to the bowl:
>through a leaky flapper.
>through a leaky gasket on the flush valve
>siphon through the tube IF it is into the overflow.


Engineers can quote all the equations they want, but they never siphoned gas from a '57 chevy. Yes it works, and virtually every plumber who has been in the field for more than a few years has SEEN and REPAIRED the overflow tube issue. YES, VIRGINIA, it WILL siphon the tank

 

[BobL43]

Have you found out HOW your tank fills?

..........................................

As to Engineers, the Anasazi did a damn good job building in cliff overhangs, and I doubt any of them went to the university of Arizona.

Them was Injun-eers

 

[Ballvalve]

Gotta try it, but I dont yet see a plausible answer in this thread. I can only think of the flapper needing some water weight to close fully, and the water still filling after the siphon breaks.

 

[hj]

quote; I do in this case agree with the MechEng guy. I just can't see why the insertion depth would have any effect on anything.

Tell that to the doctor who had a "cycling toilet" problem. I asked him if he had a pair of scissors? I took the scissors, cut the end OFF the little tube so it was NOT inserted too far, and changed him $100.00 for about 2 seconds work. The bowl can refill with water without the little tube if there is enough residual water to "fall back" into the trap after the siphon is broken by incoming air. engineers work from theory, with little practical knowledge in the field. We work with experience and therefore we KNOW what works and what doesn't and WHY. In many cases when engineers "fail" it is spectacular, expensive, and often deadly, i.e., Chernoble. Engineers from the UofA also learn to ask if the customer wants fries with his order.

 

[Bluebinky]

As an engineer, I think you guys are being way too hard on the OP.

I have siphoned gas, framed a building, designed ICs, wired buildings, rebuilt a transmission, redone plumbing, etc... Some guys never leave the lab, others aren't happy unless their hands are dirty. Everyone makes mistakes eventually

Engineers tend to be very curious and this guy appears to be no exception.

I just disassembled a fill valve assembly I have sitting around. On top is says "korky" and has a number 528 on it. There is no way in a million years that this thing could siphon through the fill tube. Obviously, others can and do

 

[LLigetfa]

As an engineer, I think you guys are being way too hard on the OP.

While it is poplur to say "there is not such thing as a stupid question", once you declare 40 years experience as an engineer, certain assumption are made and the question "Can someone please explain why it is there?" sets up preconceptions.

Engineers are often picked on for holding steadfast to theory even when practice proves them wrong. I think it drives them nuts, like a bean counter that cannot balance a ledger and will spend days or weeks trying to find a two cent error. I work in IT and have an accountant insist there was a programming flaw when he was off by two cents. I threw a nickel on his desk and told him to keep the change.

 

[Bluebinky]

There are stubborn people in every field. In my experience, the most stubborn are usually either idiots, extremely talented, or have been doing the same thing the same way so long they no longer can think.

On the other hand, people who are curious why and how often become engineers. I'm curious what plumbers think engineers actually do.

I still don't see why all the bashing for someone asking a pure implementation question about something outside his area of expertise.

 

[Ballvalve]

His question is very thought provoking, and I didnt see any bashing. If we can pull the tube, great idea!

OK - just pulled my tube on a savoy one piece american standard, original parts and clipped it just outside the fill tube. 3 flushes and the damn bowl filled right to the iron line, and the tank filled much faster, of course. I'll report back if the flush capacity or volume is in any way reduced later. If not, this is a BIG water saver.

 

[LLigetfa]

There are factors beyond the control of the flushologist such as the effect of the drain WRT venting and siphoning so the engineering must err on the side of caution. In the case of the OP, the flush valve was not OEM, so questioning the refill tube is not really relevant to the original design intent.

My dual flush Ameirican Standard toilets do not direct the flow from the refill tube into the overflow pipe through the entire refill cycle. The refill tube is attached to the float and it is only at the end of the fill cycle that some of the flow goes into the overflow tube. I have watched the level in the bowl and none of the water from the refill tube is wasted. In fact it comes up one cup short. I can raise the level in the bowl by pouring in one cup of water. Two cups in the bowl and one cup goes around the bend.

 

[Jadnashua]

If everything is working as it should, the tank and the bowl would fill at exactly the same time, and the water would shut off with no wastage. This is one avenue manufacturers are taking to minimize water usage. In practice, if the bowl is not full, it doesn't flush properly (most of the time - may not be noticable if it is only liquids), so the tendency is to overfill the bowl to ensure it is full when the tank is and the water stops. If there is any obstruction, the siphon jet may not suck as much of the water out of the toilet as intended, and there'll be more left, so there's less needed to ensure it is full. If you've modified the toilet in any way, or parts are worn, then the fill balence may be off. Most toilets need the refill tube. Today, most codes require the toilet fill valve to have anti-siphon technology. But, as things wear out, siphoning can and does happen IF the fill tube is inserted too low into the overflow pipe.