What should I change for diaphragm pressure tank?

[Mike77]

I have a fiberglass 80 gallon FlexLite FLS80D pressure tank with no diaphragm on a 200 ft deep well with a 1 hp Grundfos pump. It was installed by a professional well driller I paid $7,000 two and one half years ago who is now retired and doesn't what to come look at it. It took me a year and one half to build my house and move in so I have only been using my well for 6 months. Since I divorced my wife of 21 years for committing adultery with 5 men I am by myself and don't use much water.

Tapping the tank it sounds like it is 90% full of water. With just one cold water faucet open, the pump off, and the gauge at 50psi the water runs for 1minute and 23 seconds drops to 30psi then the pump runs for 8 seconds then shuts off for another 1 minute and 23 seconds. I have drained the tank several times with little change in the run time and I can't find any leaks.

I think with only an 8 second run time my pump will fail soon.

I am going to install an AO Smith (either a 36 or 86 gallon) tank with a diaphragm myself. I plan to follow this diagram unless I am advised otherwise.

My general question is what do I need to change to go from a pressure tank without a diaphragm to one with a diaphragm?

1. Do in need to replace the brass fitting which has the snifter/schrader valve and the pressure switch on it to eliminate the snifter/schrader valve?

2. Do I need to eliminate the weep hole I saw the well driller drill through the well pipe for air intake about 12 feet down?

3. I plan to get 2 friends to help me pull up the well pipe so I can eliminate the weep hole. The well driller installed the pump with 2 helpers and no platform or pipe pulling rig.
Should I just glue the weep hole shut or should I cut the pipe across the weep hole and glue in a coupling?
If need to install a coupling to eliminate the weep hole do they make one of a higher schedule like the well pipe is. It's the high grade schedule pipe that has built in couplings. I would hate for the well pipe and pump to drop.

Thanks in advance to anyone who advises me. May God bless you.

 

[Reach4]

1. Do in need to replace the brass fitting which has the snifter/schrader valve and the pressure switch on it to eliminate the snifter/schrader valve?

You could put a cap intended for car tires onto the snifter valve. That would block air.

2. Do I need to eliminate the weep hole I saw the well driller drill through the well pipe for air intake about 12 feet down?

Yes. Getting rid of the check valve is more important, but getting rid of the check valve and the hole is what you want to do.

Should I just glue the weep hole shut or should I cut the pipe across the weep hole and glue in a coupling?
If need to install a coupling to eliminate the weep hole do they make one of a higher schedule like the well pipe is. It's the high grade schedule pipe that has built in couplings. I would hate for the well pipe and pump to drop.

I infer your drop pipe is PVC
Usually you use threaded schedule 80 pipe. So you could thread the pipe and use stainless or schedule 120 threaded PVC.

There are a couple of easier things you could consider. I am not a pro. A screw screwed into the hole could work. Another idea is to get a shielded banded coupler. Slice the rubber, put the slice opposite the hole, and screw the band into place. A professional might not like either of these.

"schedule 80" slip (glued) pvc coupling exist. You would want to make sure that the glue has extra extra time to set.

You could get a pvc repair coupling like a regular coupling, but no inside stop/ridge down the middle. Do not use the telescoping type. Cut out about 160 degrees long-wise. Glue that over the hole (spreading the coupling to get around the pipe. Maybe even top that with a worm gear clamp. A pro might like that better.

The term "tank tee" is usually used to refer to a manifold that also has places to put the pressure gauge and pressure switch. Having the pressure switch connected by good diameter pipe for a short distance is best.

On a different note, maybe replacing the valve insert for the sniffer valve would solve everything. Ooooh.. if it has a cap, make sure it is not one that lacks a hole to admit air!

 

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[Mike77]

You could put a cap intended for car tires onto the snifter valve. That would block air.

Yes. Getting rid of the check valve is more important, but getting rid of the check valve and the hole is what you want to do.

I infer your drop pipe is PVC
Usually you use threaded schedule 80 pipe. So you could thread the pipe and use stainless or schedule 120 threaded PVC.

There are a couple of easier things you could consider. I am not a pro. A screw screwed into the hole could work. Another idea is to get a shielded banded coupler. Slice the rubber, put the slice opposite the hole, and screw the band into place. A professional might not like either of these.

"schedule 80" slip (glued) pvc coupling exist. You would want to make sure that the glue has extra extra time to set.

You could get a pvc repair coupling like a regular coupling, but no inside stop/ridge down the middle. Do not use the telescoping type. Cut out about 160 degrees long-wise. Glue that over the hole (spreading the coupling to get around the pipe. Maybe even top that with a worm gear clamp. A pro might like that better.

The term "tank tee" is usually used to refer to a manifold that also has places to put the pressure gauge and pressure switch. Having the pressure switch connected by good diameter pipe for a short distance is best.

On a different note, maybe replacing the valve insert for the sniffer valve would solve everything. Ooooh.. if it has a cap, make sure it is not one that lacks a hole to admit air!

 

[Mike77]

Thanks for the advise Reach4. Yes, my well pipe is pvc. The driller ran it around my yard for 200 feet, glued the joints, and bent the pipe just standing on the ground it as it went down the well casing,

A friend who used to do plumbing work told me not to eliminate the weep hole that was drilled in the pvc pipe down to the well or the pump could vapor lock but I think he is mistaken.

I don't think replacing the valve insert for the snifter valve would help. The snifter valve has no cap on it and I can feel it letting in air when the pump turns on. I can hear water running back down the well pipe when the pump shuts off. I know I must disable or remove the snifter valve when I change to a diaphragm pump.

Why do you say I should get rid of the check valve. The diagram for the pressure tank I am getting shows to use one.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks for the advise Reach4. Yes, my well pipe is pvc. The driller ran it around my yard for 200 feet, glued the joints, and bent the pipe just standing on the ground it as it went down the well casing,

A friend who used to do plumbing work told me not to eliminate the weep hole that was drilled in the pvc pipe down to the well or the pump could vapor lock but I think he is mistaken.

I don't think replacing the valve insert for the snifter valve would help. The snifter valve has no cap on it and I can feel it letting in air when the pump turns on. I can hear water running back down the well pipe when the pump shuts off. I know I must disable or remove the snifter valve when I change to a diaphragm pump.

Why do you say I should get rid of the check valve. The diagram for the pressure tank I am getting shows to use one.

I guess gluing worked fine then.

The hole is not wanted.

We want the drop pipe to be full of water and under pressure. If you have a check valve, the pipe will fill with water vapor. When the pump starts, the column of water will rise, and bang into the check valve. Don't get me wrong. Many wells have that check valve in place, and have no symptoms noted. Try searching this forum, using the search box above, for the word "inn ards" but without the space.

With your current setup, the pressure tank should get a dose of air each time the pump starts. The a thing called the AVC (air volume control) lets out the surplus air. It could be your AVC is letting out too much air.

https://www.amtrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/9016868_MC10185_09_16_WXT_IO.pdf shows no check valve for a submersible pump. Maybe the diagram you are looking at is for a shallow well pump that has no check valve at the bottom.

 

[Mike77]

Thanks for the link to the Amtrol pdf. but since the diagram I posted from http://www.beckerwholesalesupply.com/product/tank1s shows the electric wires going down the well casing it has to be a submersible pump.

I suppose I should not use a check vale so I avoid avoid water hammer. Great advise!

 

[Reach4]

Which port is your AVC in? https://www.flexconind.com/fls sell sheet lr 7-17-18.pdf

I wonder if you could pull that and check that it seemed to be working OK. I guess it is not leaking water, or you would have noticed that. I don't really know what the AVCSP-80 looks like. I don't find pictures.

 

[Mike77]

The air volume control valve is in the middle port below the Flexlite sticker.

 

[Reach4]

If the AVC were in the bottom port, it should retain more air. Get a comment from somebody with experience before considering a move.

 

[Mike77]

OK thanks. I don't have much to loose I might as well move the air volume control valve to the lower fitting tomorrow afternoon. But as it is now if the float shuts it off in the middle of the tank when the tank is 1/2 full I don't understand why there is so little air in the tank.

It looks like the air volume control valve lets air out of the pressure tank until the water level raises to meet the valve and then the float closes it so after that air coming into the tank stays in the tank so I might as well try putting it in the lower fitting.

I can see how the air volume control valve can keep too much air from getting in the tank but I don's see how it can cause the pressure tank to have more air in it that could have without an air volume control valve.

I used to have a shallow well with an above ground pump at my previous residence and it had an old water heater for a pressure tank. It would quickly get water logged so I installed a small diaphragm tank myself. When the well driller installed my tank without a diaphragm here I told him it would get water logged but he said it would not get water logged and my water would have a sulfur taste if I had a diaphragm pressure tank. But I would rather have sulfur that a worn out pump from short cycling.

A plumber who has experience with these Flexlite pressure tanks told me they are prone to leaking and with the poly coating over the the fiberglass it is very hard to find a leak. He said he only installs glass lined steel AO Smith pressure tanks.

Without a weep hole in the drop pipe wouldn't I have to worry about the drop pipe freezing and breaking during a hard freeze?

 

[Reach4]

Without a weep hole in the drop pipe wouldn't I have to worry about the drop pipe freezing and breaking during a hard freeze?

Yes. That is a bonus of the bleeding+snifter system I had forgotten about. Usually today in hard freeze areas, the pipe would be below the frost line, and the pipe would connect via a pitless adapter.

So with above ground pipe in a cold part of Texas, you may want to try harder to stay with your system.

When you access your AVC, take some pictures, please.

I am not a pro, and my comments are not based on my own experience.

 

[Mike77]

In this other discussion, Air Volume Control
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/air-volume-control.30642
Valveman wrote, "Air charge systems should not need tweeking but, they do need maintenance. Four parts must continue to work properly for the air charge to work. The AVC just lets excess air out. The above ground check valve holds pressure off the line so the bleeder can open. The Schrader valve on this check valve must work to allow air into the system. Then the bleeder orifice down in the well must open on low pressure to let air in, and close on high pressure to keep water in.
If any one of these four parts fail, the air charge won't work properly. That is why most people use bladder tanks, they do away with these four moving and wearable parts, that continue to need maintenance or else"

I was there when the well driller installed my pump and I did not see a " bleeder orifice down in the well" being installed.
How far down the well pipe might this bleeder orifice be?
Could my well not have a bleeder orifice and just have the weep hole I saw drilled instead?
If it has a bleeder orifice will I have to remove it to change to a diaphragm pressure tank?
Does a submersible pump also have a foot valve?

 

[Reach4]

I was there when the well driller installed my pump and I did not see a " bleeder orifice down in the well" being installed.
How far down the well pipe might this bleeder orifice be?
Could my well not have a bleeder orifice and just have the weep hole I saw drilled instead?
If it has a bleeder orifice will I have to remove it to change to a diaphragm pressure tank?
Does a submersible pump also have a foot valve?

You would not have both. The bleeder orifice is more sophisticated. With a hole, as you would expect, the water squirts out of the hole the whole time the pump runs. With the special bleeder, the path is mostly blocked when the pressure is above some threshhold. Then when the pressure drops after the pump is off, the path is opened to drain the water above. That bleeder is also called a drain-back valve.

A foot valve has a screen and a check valve. There would not be a separate foot valve with a submersible, but the functions are there.

 

[Mike77]

Thanks Reach4, it's good to know I don't have a bleeder valve to mess with if I have to change to a diaphragm tank but I would need to remove the check valve.

I was looking at my tank again for leaks. I still can't find any.

I checked the run time again and now with the pump at pressure and shut off with one cold faucet open in the house it flows water for 2 minutes then the pump runs for about 5 seconds and shuts off again. My Square D pressure switch is supposed to be a 30-50 but now it is shutting off early at 45 psi. I am going to tighten the smaller outside spring to get the cut off back up to 50psi. Then I am going to move the air volume control valve to the lower fitting and see if that helps.

 

[Reach4]

Thanks Reach4, it's good to know I don't have a bleeder valve to mess with if I have to change to a diaphragm tank but I would need to remove the check valve.

I was looking at my tank again for leaks. I still can't find any.

I checked the run time again and now with the pump at pressure and shut off with one cold faucet open in the house it flows water for 2 minutes then the pump runs for about 5 seconds and shuts off again. My Square D pressure switch is supposed to be a 30-50 but now it is shutting off early at 45 psi. I am going to tighten the smaller outside spring to get the cut off back up to 50psi. Then I am going to move the air volume control valve to the lower fitting and see if that helps.

So is the system not adding enough air, or is the AVC releasing too much air? Adding air with a compressor might be a good thing to do. If that increases run time a lot, the problem is something not letting enough air get added. You hear the air going into the snifter valve, so that seems unlikely. But it might be good to test for that before considering moving the AVC. Do you actually detect the air being released from the AVC? I was thinking you had, but looking back I don't see that.

With this 5 second number, I don't think that the problem could be the AVC.

 

[Mike77]

I have can't hear or feel any air coming out of the AVC but I never had any air coming out of any faucets in my house so too much air is not the problem. Tapping the tank it feels like it is 90% full of water when the pump shuts off.

I am going to wait until tomorrow to remove the AVC to check it and move it to the lower fitting like you suggested. I think that will shut the AVC off sooner so it might help. I do feel air coming in through the snifter valve when the pump runs.

Maybe the weep hole that was drilled in the drop pipe is plugged or is too small of a diameter. I made a big mistake not checking pump run time and not tapping the tank to see high up the water level in the tank was while the well driller was still here. I did not have electricity and he was running the pump with his generator.

I might have been off on that 5 second run time since I was just counting one thousand one, one thousand two etc.

Now since I have adjusted the pressure shut off switch the pump turns on at 25 psi and shuts off at 57 psi. Timing it with the stop watch function on my wrist watch, with the pump shut off at 57 psi, and one cold water faucet open in my house the now the water runs for 2 minutes 53 seconds until the pressure goes down to 25 psi then the pump turns on 17 seconds until it gets back to 57 psi.
Is this a good run time or still a short cycle?

 

[Reach4]

How much and what size pipe is between your pressure switch and the input to your pressure tank? Shorter (and bigger) is better.

How about a photo that shows the pressure switch and the input to the pressure tank.

 

[Mike77]

The pipe is 1" dia. schd. 40. The horizontal distance from the drop pipe to the pressure tank is about 2ft.
That brass valve on the drop pipe has 75 psi marked on it. Rather than a check valve I think it is some kind of a safety vale with the right angle end open. Should I keep it if I change to a diaphragm tank?
Here is the photo:

 

[Reach4]

The pipe is 1" dia. schd. 40. The horizontal distance from the drop pipe to the pressure tank is about 2ft.
That brass valve on the drop pipe has 75 psi marked on it. Rather than a check valve I think it is some kind of a safety vale with the right angle end open. Should I keep it if I change to a diaphragm tank?

Yes. That is a pressure relief valve. It would save the pump if the pressure switch got stuck on.

I don't see the pressure gauge.

You may be able to take the check valve poppet (innards) out, and use the outer part as a manifold.

It looks like it would be hard to access the snifter valve if you wanted to add some air.

 

[Mike77]

The pressure gauge is on the opposite side of the tank on the air volume control valve.
Like this one:

With the snifter valve under the pressure switch I don't think you are supposed put air in the snifter valve. Air comes in through the snifter valve and the weep hole when the pump runs.