Wet venting floor drain in garage through a utility sink NSPC

[John Gayewski]

Hello Jeff and John,
Thank you Jeff for going out of your way to lookup NJ code.
I didn’t want to look it up because I know it would pass, I’ve done this type of install before as I said. My only concern was for drain pipe size that’s why I split the fixtures and ran a separate 2” for the Utility sink’s that’s going to be in the garage. I always look for the optimal solution that would work and my concern is usability above pleasing the government’s code.
This floor drain as with all the others I’ve installed are only to be used in an unintended and unusual scenario. I’ve installed at least 8 of these types of floor drains in the middle of the room for over 20 years and none of the floor drains had a drop of water in them except for the water from the primer.

I can install the drain against the wall and eliminate a horizontal run but that would cause issues because I have a purpose for every inch along the wall and having to access a drain from under an appliance would be just stupid regardless what the code says.

For this room I’m installing a large Viessmann Vitocrossal 300 boiler for the radiant heating/hot water in the house and a 42 gallons Viessmann Vitocell indirect water tank. The odds of the indirect tank rupturing are slim to none but I’m installing this floor drain in any case…

I didn't look up your boiler type. I would assume it's a modern condensing high efficiency boiler which needs a drain.

If so the floor drain is best near a wall so you can run your piping to it without piping laying on the floor. That's generally how we plan them, near a wall, but obviously not under an appliance.

 

[Plumb-This-That]

I didn't look up your boiler type. I would assume it's a modern condensing high efficiency boiler which needs a drain.

If so the floor drain is best near a wall so you can run your piping to it without piping laying on the floor. That's generally how we plan them, near a wall, but obviously not under an appliance.

It’s illegal to drain highly acidic condensate in the sewer. All my installs get pumped out to mother nature even condensate from furnaces/boilers in a roof attic.


Everything I do is for a reason, There’s actually no need for it other than in an emergency flood so I need to make sure this highly critical fixture is available and functional at all times. I can't service or access it if it's under a boiler or furnace. I need to see the grill and make sure it's operational, I want to see it in the middle of the room just in case I need to access it (say it got covered under an appliance by a sheet of paper or by some gunk...)

 

[Sponsor]

 

[John Gayewski]

It’s illegal to drain highly acidic condensate in the sewer. All my installs get pumped out to mother nature even condensate from furnaces/boilers in a roof attic.


Everything I do is for a reason, There’s actually no need for it other than in an emergency flood so I need to make sure this highly critical fixture is available and functional at all times. I can't service or access it if it's under a boiler or furnace. I need to see the grill and make sure it's operational, I want to see it in the middle of the room just in case I need to access it (say it got covered under an appliance by a sheet of paper or by some gunk...)

Your supposed to use a condensate neutralizer with it. Mother nature doesn't want acid either. The directions will most likley show you using a neutralizer before the drain. It's usually required whether it's pumped outside or not. Apparently New Jersey doesn't care?

 

[Plumb-This-That]

Your supposed to use a condensate neutralizer with it. Mother nature doesn't want acid either. The directions will most likley show you using a neutralizer before the drain. It's usually required whether it's pumped outside or not. Apparently New Jersey doesn't care?

You should see the Azaleas and Rhododendrons how they thrive around that condensate, huge colorful blooms. Not so good around low ph loving plants. Also I dealt with officials who didn't want to hear about any capsules neutralizing pellets treating water, they just don't want the water in the sewer no matter what so I stopped arguing altogether and now all condensates get pumped to the exterior.
In terms of what you said about the proximity of the drain to the wall would be better to run the drains concealed, I do run a drain from the dehumidifiers to an OxBox on the wall with a connection in the concrete to the primer of the drain so no pipes or hoses on the surface.
Here's a photo of the OxBox.
What're we playing floor drain chess now?
Your move...

 

[John Gayewski]

You should see the Azaleas and Rhododendrons how they thrive around that condensate, huge colorful blooms. Not so good around low ph loving plants. Also I dealt with officials who didn't want to hear about any capsules neutralizing pellets treating water, they just don't want the water in the sewer no matter what so I stopped arguing altogether and now all condensates get pumped to the exterior.
In terms of what you said about the proximity of the drain to the wall would be better to run the drains concealed, I do run a drain from the dehumidifiers to an OxBox on the wall with a connection in the concrete to the primer of the drain so no pipes or hoses on the surface.
Here's a photo of the OxBox.
What're we playing floor drain chess now?
Your move...

Lol. Pan overflows and t&ps also go to the wall floor drain.

We don't need to play chess most professional designers and manufacturers agree with me. I'm betting 100% if I looked it up I could find five ways that you shouldn't be pumping condensate outside like that. The thing is I don't really care if you can convince someone to buy a pump and have another piece of equipment fail then that's your perogative.

Pumps are nice when needed extra when not.

 

[Plumb-This-That]

Lol. Pan overflows and t&ps also go to the wall floor drain.

We don't need to play chess most professional designers and manufacturers agree with me. I'm betting 100% if I looked it up I could find five ways that you shouldn't be pumping condensate outside like that. The thing is I don't really care if you can convince someone to buy a pump and have another piece of equipment fail then that's your perogative.

Pumps are nice when needed extra when not.

If your pan overflow and your T&P discharge is frequent you have a more urgent concern than your proximity to the floor drain.


The PH level of the condensate is around 5, Rhododendrons and other acid loving plants love a PH level of 4.5 to 5 this is why my observations of thriving shrubs of this kind make sense. You can look it up but trust me I’ve been into looking for how to best grow shrubs and trees in the garden for a couple of decades and I know first hand that the condensate isn’t harmful to some.


I’m not in the business of selling or benefit from the sale of pumps, as I said I’d rather not be hassled by an official; the worst thing that can happen is that the pump would fail and the alarm would sound, I’d be notified and would fix the glitch…



No hard feelings man, relax

 

[John Gayewski]

If your pan overflow and your T&P discharge is frequent you have a more urgent concern than your proximity to the floor drain.


The PH level of the condensate is around 5, Rhododendrons and other acid loving plants love a PH level of 4.5 to 5 this is why my observations of thriving shrubs of this kind make sense. You can look it up but trust me I’ve been into looking for how to best grow shrubs and trees in the garden for a couple of decades and I know first hand that the condensate isn’t harmful to some.


I’m not in the business of selling or benefit from the sale of pumps, as I said I’d rather not be hassled by an official; the worst thing that can happen is that the pump would fail and the alarm would sound, I’d be notified and would fix the glitch…



No hard feelings man, relax

There are no feelings. You can trust the pro a floor drain in the middle of the floor doesn't have much use unless your in a shower.

 

[Plumb-This-That]

Here's the photo I promised to post...

 

[Jeff H Young]

Nice looks good !

 

[Plumb-This-That]

Nice looks good !

I can tell that Jeff is the type of guy that you call at 4AM for a favor and he’d ask where and how not why and what for. Nothing upsets him and always mild mannered. I had a dear friend Tony Gallo like that and believe me it’s a rare breed. The world is a much better place with the Jeffs and Tonys around.

 

[Reach4]

It’s illegal to drain highly acidic condensate in the sewer.

I gave this some thought. https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/IPC2018/chapter-8-indirect-special-waste/IPC2018-Ch08-Sec803.1 says "Corrosive liquids, spent acids or other harmful chemicals that destroy or injure a drain, sewer, soil or waste pipe, or create noxious or toxic fumes or interfere with sewage treatment processes shall not be discharged into the plumbing system without being thoroughly diluted, neutralized or treated by passing through an approved dilution or neutralizing device."

If you have plastic pipes draining into a city sewer, I don't see harm to the sewer system or piping. The condensate is low volume, and would be diluted once it joins other waste. So I would interpret this as not something that would destroy the pipes that this will travel through.

If it were outright illegal to run the condensate of your condensing WH or furnace into a drain, I suspect it is only if the instructions said you need a neutralizer, and the code said you had to follow the manufacturer's instructions. I could easily be wrong.

Now if you have copper drain lines, you certainly would not want that condensate. I would not even want undiluted urine in copper drain lines. Cast iron-- I don't have a firm opinion. The pH of the condensate is about the same as household vinegar, and I don't think it is illegal to pour vinegar down household drains. I understand that my pouring vinegar comparison is flawed in that condensate can be more continual, and pouring vinegar is a very isolated event.

If I did have a condensing drain and wanted to neutralize the condensate, I tend to not want to buy cartridges. Instead limestone gravel or calcite (water treatment grade limestone) could serve as the neutralizing media. I have no condensing furnace or WH. On the other hand, 803.1 says that neutralizing needs to be by an approved device. That would seem to forbid making my own, but may using an approved housing that I would reload with gravel would meet that apparent requirement. The fact that condensate could harm somebody's copper drain system does not mean that it could harm a plastic drain system.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I can tell that Jeff is the type of guy that you call at 4AM for a favor and he’d ask where and how not why and what for. Nothing upsets him and always mild mannered. I had a dear friend Tony Gallo like that and believe me it’s a rare breed. The world is a much better place with the Jeffs and Tonys around.

Thanks for the kind words I dont think I deserve it that because Im not always that way yea I want to help but get pretty opiniated and not always that polite or even correct . But kind words go out to the others too my opinion Reach 4 and John Gayewski and Sylvan give out the best info they can and come up with real good input,

 

[Plumb-This-That]

I gave this some thought. https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/IPC2018/chapter-8-indirect-special-waste/IPC2018-Ch08-Sec803.1 says "Corrosive liquids, spent acids or other harmful chemicals that destroy or injure a drain, sewer, soil or waste pipe, or create noxious or toxic fumes or interfere with sewage treatment processes shall not be discharged into the plumbing system without being thoroughly diluted, neutralized or treated by passing through an approved dilution or neutralizing device."

If you have plastic pipes draining into a city sewer, I don't see harm to the sewer system or piping. The condensate is low volume, and would be diluted once it joins other waste. So I would interpret this as not something that would destroy the pipes that this will travel through.

If it were outright illegal to run the condensate of your condensing WH or furnace into a drain, I suspect it is only if the instructions said you need a neutralizer, and the code said you had to follow the manufacturer's instructions. I could easily be wrong.

Now if you have copper drain lines, you certainly would not want that condensate. I would not even want undiluted urine in copper drain lines. Cast iron-- I don't have a firm opinion. The pH of the condensate is about the same as household vinegar, and I don't think it is illegal to pour vinegar down household drains. I understand that my pouring vinegar comparison is flawed in that condensate can be more continual, and pouring vinegar is a very isolated event.

If I did have a condensing drain and wanted to neutralize the condensate, I tend to not want to buy cartridges. Instead limestone gravel or calcite (water treatment grade limestone) could serve as the neutralizing media. I have no condensing furnace or WH. On the other hand, 803.1 says that neutralizing needs to be by an approved device. That would seem to forbid making my own, but may using an approved housing that I would reload with gravel would meet that apparent requirement. The fact that condensate could harm somebody's copper drain system does not mean that it could harm a plastic drain system.

This install is in a very upscale type of small town, they are very finicky about what goes in their water treatment facility. They also make a huge fuss about calculating impervious coverage and they go out of their way to propose and sometimes enforce drywell and stormwater management installations. The official is hard to convince and I stopped arguing because as I said I found the discharge to be an advantage for the landscaping. The trickle discharge from the pump is always beneficial to acid loving plants.

 

[Plumb-This-That]

Thanks for the kind words I dont think I deserve it that because Im not always that way yea I want to help but get pretty opiniated and not always that polite or even correct . But kind words go out to the others too my opinion Reach 4 and John Gayewski and Sylvan give out the best info they can and come up with real good input,

Maybe you’re just being modest but that’s how you came across from the back and forth we had these past months… You reminded me of a dear friend that I lost, he was actually my wife’s mother’s boyfriend. He passed away from a heart failure. He was a saint. Always pleasant, always went out of his way to help, always smiling and the easiest going. I used to call him from Boston telling him that I’m working on something and he’d be like I’ll be there this weekend to help (he lived in NYC) without me asking. He never was mad, the only time I remember him getting upset, he told me a story about him being at a supermarket in Long Island, he was in the parking lot backing out and some wiseguy pulled up right behind him and got out of the car, Tony came out and told the guy hey I’m backing out, the guy said “I’ll be right back, I just have to grab something real quick”. He said he waited about 5 minutes until that guy came out, I asked him so what did you do ,, he said I told him you got some nerve blocking me and making me wait for you like that… The guy ignored him and took off. That was it, the only story of him getting worked up. Me I was/am the opposite, In Boston and Revere I used to get into fist fights with guys in the street over them hitting on my girlfriend (my wife now) she was/is a gorgeous woman so Massholes couldn’t help but hit on her… I don’t let things go and I know it’s a bad trait but that’s how I am. I hate it sometimes when I know I’m wrong but sometimes that’s how you should be to stop people from taking advantage of you…

 

[Jeff H Young]

Those are things I think about often I got my times when Id be better off to let things go but insisted of setting things straight. and times when I dont care Im going to say what I have to .

 

[Reach4]

The official is hard to convince and I stopped arguing because as I said I found the discharge to be an advantage for the landscaping. The trickle discharge from the pump is always beneficial to acid loving plants.

Way to make lemonade.
Think about flow during a hard freeze.

 

[Plumb-This-That]

Way to make lemonade.
Think about flow during a hard freeze.

The discharge pipe is a 2” PVC even situated on the north side so it’s a worst case scenario with no winter sun exposure.. The setup is like this: A 3/4” PVC covered with black k-flex pipe foam insulation then sleeved through the 2” PVC. The PVC is painted to match the cedar shingles. Never once froze for over 10 years now. A couple years ago the temps fell to almost zero and the pipe never froze… I don’ half arse anything. Never.

 

[John Gayewski]

It is always better to avoid an argument with an inspector.

He wouldn't argue a condensate neutralizer though as they are what is supposed to be there.

It's a better way to do it, it's really the only approved way to do it. They change out very easily and can be refilled with any limestone as there are different styles. A pump that pumps acidic water doesn't last too long.

 

[DIYorBust]

In NYC last time I checked, you could avoid a floor drain vent if you connected within 15 feet to a vented drain. However trap primers might be required. On the other hand, I think if you connect to a storm sewer, or a building storm drain, no trap is required.