Wellmate HP-9 Pressure Tank Continues to get Water Logged

[LLigetfa]

Isn't that excess water usage a burden on the pressure tank life?

It really depends on how much water it uses. Drip irrigation systems are very often low GPM and as such could cause the pump to cycle excessively.

I do wonder however if the pump is cycling. As I mentioned before, the micronizer should be sucking air during the first 3rd of the pump cycle, but of course the garden spigot being midway could be separating and stealing all that air. If you cannot move the spigot source to the house, can you move the HP tank to the well before the spigot?

If the drip system uses low pressure (via PRV) perhaps you could have the well pump fill an open storage tank and use gravity feed from there.

 

[Reach4]

As I mentioned before, the micronizer should be sucking air during the first 3rd of the pump cycle,

Could you say more on that? Are you saying that if you set your pressure to 30/50, the micronizer might stop sucking air in once the pressure had risen to maybe 37 psi? In that case, it seems to me that the micronizer would have the ability to suck air into a certain max pressure, and that you would adjust your water pressure to work around that. Is that it? So you might find that the pressure that the micronizer stops sucking air, and set your cut-on pressure to 7 psi below that?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[LLigetfa]

Could you say more on that? Are you saying that if you set your pressure to 30/50, the micronizer might stop sucking air in once the pressure had risen to maybe 37 psi? In that case, it seems to me that the micronizer would have the ability to suck air into a certain max pressure, and that you would adjust your water pressure to work around that. Is that it? So you might find that the pressure that the micronizer stops sucking air, and set your cut-on pressure to 7 psi below that?

In theory, it is more the GPM than actual pressure but in actuality, the pressure (differential across the venturi) does play a role. Since pumps run on a curve, at the higher pressure, the GPM is less. At the higher pressure with less flow, you get less differential across the venturi so no vacuum can form to suck in air.

When I replaced my 10 GPM Goulds pump with a 10 GPM Grundfos, the new pump could produce higher pressure and GPM on the upstream side of the venturi in the micronizer and so it could suck air at higher pressure. If I were to size my pump for a deeper well, it would produce even more pressure and subsequently suck more air.

I use a Waterite micronizer that has an adjustable bypass which I adjust to draw air for the first 3rd of the cycle which is standard practice. If I reduce the bypass to get it to draw more air, it also reduces the GPM which goes contrary to the theory. I grew tired of the "experts" trying to tell me that it is GPM that determines whether or not it sucks air. It is the GPM going through the venturi, not GPM going through the bypass but the experts seem to be deaf to that distinction. I could run two micronizers in parallel to get more GPM and more air, assuming my pump is up to the task.

I don't do much irrigation but when I do, my zones are sized to draw just enough water to prevent the pump from reaching cutout pressure and so for that duration, the micronizer does not suck air. If I did a lot more irrigating, I would have to change how I do it, probably by adding an air compressor to inject air for 100% of the pump cycle.

 

[Reach4]

When I replaced my 10 GPM Goulds pump with a 10 GPM Grundfos, the new pump could produce higher pressure and GPM on the upstream side of the venturi in the micronizer and so it could suck air at higher pressure. If I were to size my pump for a deeper well, it would produce even more pressure and subsequently suck more air.

What psi do you set your pressure switch at?

 

[LLigetfa]

What psi do you set your pressure switch at?

I honestly did not remember so I had to check. Looks like my recollection is flawed and that I had tweaked the micronizer bypass and the pressure switch range to get more air. The cut-in is 35 and the cutout is 55 with the micronizer sucking air the entire time. Granted, at 55 PSI it is right on the edge and hardly draws any air. I did have it set to 45/65 at one time and had the bypass opened up a little more.

 

[Lisianthus]

It really depends on how much water it uses. Drip irrigation systems are very often low GPM and as such could cause the pump to cycle excessively.

I do wonder however if the pump is cycling. As I mentioned before, the micronizer should be sucking air during the first 3rd of the pump cycle, but of course the garden spigot being midway could be separating and stealing all that air. If you cannot move the spigot source to the house, can you move the HP tank to the well before the spigot?

If the drip system uses low pressure (via PRV) perhaps you could have the well pump fill an open storage tank and use gravity feed from there.

I was thinking a bleeder too, but if the guy filled out the form correctly, natural flow on the Virginia form means artesian flow......so a bleeder would never work since the water would never drain.

Lisianthus- Do you know if your well has an artesian flow (flows on it's own)? They may have put something on the wellhead to stop it, but according to your report it does...where in VA are you?

I am in Gloucester, VA. I talked with the well man and he said I do not have an artesian well. He said the natural flow on the form means that the water flows on its own - does not need suction. The pump is a Stay Right 1/2 HP. The well man said "he had NO IDEA if the air injector was a bleeder orifice - it was a micronizer".
LLigetfa, he admitted that the outside spigot was bleeding off the air - his answer was "only when the pumps on". Then he also told me most people use the most amount of water inside the house. I told him that would be where I differ. When on city system I used approximately 3-5000 gallons per quarter during winter consumption. During summer consumption I used anywhere from 16000 to 50000 gallons per quarter during summer consumption (I had a greenhouse and cut flower field business out of my home). I don't anticipate as much use in this new location but still hope to get a small greenhouse at some point.

 

[LLigetfa]

LLigetfa, he admitted that the outside spigot was bleeding off the air - his answer was "only when the pumps on".

I might add that if the spigot was a high point which it likely is, then air would collect there until all the water was displaced and only then would it move forward to the HP tank. Of course air only gets introduced when the pump is on but the pump would not have to be "on" for the accumulated air to be bled off.

Anyway, I have to concur with the well/pump guy that your problem is due to your water usage at the spigot and the limitations of the plumbing. I don't know what freeze issues your location might have WRT relocating the tank to before the spigot but that or relocating the spigot's feed are probably the two best options. If your spigot use in irrigation is causing a lot of pump cycling, then you will have to redesign the entire system.

 

[Lisianthus]

I might add that if the spigot was a high point which it likely is, then air would collect there until all the water was displaced and only then would it move forward to the HP tank. Of course air only gets introduced when the pump is on but the pump would not have to be "on" for the accumulated air to be bled off.

Anyway, I have to concur with the well/pump guy that your problem is due to your water usage at the spigot and the limitations of the plumbing. I don't know what freeze issues your location might have WRT relocating the tank to before the spigot but that or relocating the spigot's feed are probably the two best options. If your spigot use in irrigation is causing a lot of pump cycling, then you will have to redesign the entire system.

It certainly freezes here so moving the tank would require protection - uncertain what all that would involve. HOW do I tell if the pump is cycling a lot? Also, what do you think about "Reaches" idea to move the micronizer to the tank and leave the spigot alone. Wouldn't that drawback cause more air into the lines?

 

[LLigetfa]

what do you think about "Reaches" idea to move the micronizer to the tank and leave the spigot alone.

If the micronizer were moved to the tank, the spigot would see very high pressure when the pump was running and the amount of flow the irrigation consumed would not go through the micronizer ans so not produce air all that time. Also, when the pump is not running, the water would flow backwards through the micronizer which is not designed for that.

 

[Texas Wellman]

From your first post it sounds like the tank is full of air and not water which would indicate that the air release (or air volume control) was not removing the excess air. Remember that the job of the micronizer is to suck in air as the water passes through it and mix the air with the water. The air (or oxygen) neutralizes the H2S in the water and removes it from solution. As the air volume in the tank increases eventually you will have all air and not much water. We see this all the time with bleeder systems and air releases not working (they work off a float).

I have only messed with micronizers once or twice. I agree that they will need to be serviced much more often to keep them working. Probably a good idea to clean them out once or twice a year. Also I believe that the H2S residual in the bottom of the tank needs to be blown down and removed a few times per year. I'm told that the sulfur can combine with the O2 and make a sludge in the bottom of the tank.

I too have used the water rite impression series for sulfur with good luck. This is the route I would tank. It looks like a softner but uses air to regen.

Good luck!!

 

[LLigetfa]

I too have used the water rite impression series for sulfur with good luck.

I'm guessing that was a typo and you meant Water-Right. They draw in the air during the high GPM backwash and as such don't need the micronizer.
http://www.water-right.com/filtration/impression-plus/impression-plus-air-systems/

Waterite is yet another brand.
https://www.waterite.com/

Water rite is something else entirely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_rite

There are also other brands that use an air compressor.

 

[LLigetfa]

From your first post it sounds like the tank is full of air and not water

I have had my AVC plug and stop venting. The symptom there is huge amounts of air spitting out of the faucets with enough force to knock a glass right out of your hand. I would not describe those as lulls.

 

[VAWellDriller]

I am in Gloucester, VA. I talked with the well man and he said I do not have an artesian well. He said the natural flow on the form means that the water flows on its own - does not need suction. The pump is a Stay Right 1/2 HP. The well man said "he had NO IDEA if the air injector was a bleeder orifice - it was a micronizer".
LLigetfa, he admitted that the outside spigot was bleeding off the air - his answer was "only when the pumps on". Then he also told me most people use the most amount of water inside the house. I told him that would be where I differ. When on city system I used approximately 3-5000 gallons per quarter during winter consumption. During summer consumption I used anywhere from 16000 to 50000 gallons per quarter during summer consumption (I had a greenhouse and cut flower field business out of my home). I don't anticipate as much use in this new location but still hope to get a small greenhouse at some point.

wow......

 

[Lisianthus]

I'm guessing that was a typo and you meant Water-Right. They draw in the air during the high GPM backwash and as such don't need the micronizer.
http://www.water-right.com/filtration/impression-plus/impression-plus-air-systems/

Waterite is yet another brand.
https://www.waterite.com/

Water rite is something else entirely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_rite

There are also other brands that use an air compressor.

I checked out the water right and this will require a drain. Presents a big problem. Any way to isolate the outdoor spigot and/or the indoor tank so that the spigot draws direct from the well and the pressure tank is not affected? Could I not relocate the micronizer to the tank location and turn off the water main valve to the house when using the outdoor spigot? This is assuming the "bleed off" theory only happens when the outdoor spigot is on. Otherwise the outdoor spigot would need to be isolated (?). I know you are thinking this is an inconvenience but since I am the only person in the house it would not really be of much affect. Keep in mind I am trying to make this system work, at least for awhile rather than spend extra $.