Weak flush not getting to pit

[Reach4]

I like layouts that run the tub/shower drains past the toilet, even if it takes more pipe.

 

[Terry]

My mothers home has low flow toilets in her home. 1.6 gallons or less.
Her line is 250 feet of 4" clay pipe. It works fine.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jadnashua]

If you notice in that video...the waste did NOT make it to the end with the first flush. It moved further down with the next. If you're having a problem, there's something wrong with the layout and installation of your pipes...changing a toilet won't make much difference. A pressure assisted one's outlet (about 2") dumping into a 3 or 4" pipe means that it will slow down. A good gravity flush toilet is very close, and easier to service. Not all toilets are created equal, but the geometry of the siphon jet on most means the vast majority of the water used is dumped very quickly, even on a gravity flush system. Just how much pressure do you think there is once the water makes it into the main drainage line? A 2" outlet into a 3-4" pipe...it collapses quickly, and what's left is gravity.

 

[darryle]

It could be the septic tank need to be pumped. If there was smell in the basement.

 

[Terry]

Sounds like a case for installing an old, used water gulping toilet.
Forget all this 5LPF stuff.
Get yourself a 5GPF toilet and don't look back

I pull plenty of old 5.0 gallon toilets out. If you like, I can let you have them. Paying to dump them is costing me.
This is an old Norris from the 70's. I installed these new back then. They did not age well. And you needed a plunger for them. Something I don't keep in the house now that I have new products. I love not having to plunge anymore.

I have one of these and it's much better.

 

[Jadnashua]

If you cut the flow from your hose back by 70% it won't move the dirt in your driveway as far.

The point was, the water spreads out and slows down once it is no longer constrained into the same size as the nozzle.

Modern toilets dump nearly their entire flush volume in seconds. On my 1.6g Toto, the time between the flush valve opening, and it slamming shut is about 2-seconds. With a 3" diameter plug of water going down, the stuff should surf quite well. It's hard to say unequivocally with the flushmate, but it sounds like it is open about the same 2-seconds (and the one in the video is a 1.1g), meaning, it dumps its entire load in about the same timeframe. The difference is the velocity of the siphon jet, but that's only part of the story, as the diameter of that is fairly small compared to the main outlet of the toilet, which, again, is fairly small compared to the diameter of the drainage pipe. On a well-designed gravity flush toilet with a 3" flush valve, you'll get about the same surfing of the waste down the pipe as you will from a pressure assisted one without the extra noise, shredded paper, and repair costs. Again, not all toilets are created equal. The advantage a pressure assisted toilet has is that because the siphon jet is going faster, it can potentially break apart some harder wastes that the slightly slower gravity fed one can't. That speed is gone by the time it reaches the main pipe.

Take an old 5-6g or more flush toilet...time the flush cycle. MUCH slower exit from the bowl, so the surfing effect isn't as effective. Because there is more water, it can float things further, but most of the time, it takes subsequent flushes to move it along unless there's a significant vertical drop to speed things along. IF your pipes back up, it's likely that the slope is improper, and if things always stop at the same point, that section may be level verses sloped. Since the camera didn't see pooling water, it doesn't have a belly, but that does not rule out a flat spot, which quells much of the momentum.

 

[Plumbs Away]

After seeing that video with the clear DWV pipes, I am again happy for my 1950's Eljer 5-6GPF toilet, and continue to promote it. A lot of folks I meet are unhappy with their "low flushes", and your suggestion is exactly what I have been telling them.

I also noticed some folks with older toilets are not totally aware of today's "low flushes". I tell them about it, and by the time I am done, they will keep calling me back to fix their old ones indefinitely.

My favorite pre-3.5 gpf mandate are the American Standard Cadet and the Gerber Mount Vernon. The Cadet was "prettier," but the Mount Vernon was less prone to clogging. I have one of each but can't, in good conscience, bring myself to install and use them.

 

[Jadnashua]

The OP's issue is not clogging in the toilet, it's the waste pipes not being 'cleansed' and the waste sitting part way down the pipe. The toilet is not the issue (IMHO), it's a deficiency in the drainage system. The solids do not float all the way on a single flush...they move further along with each subsequent flush's impulse of high volume/time. Modern low-flow toilets put out a much bigger impulse than the old ones that released the water much slower. A pressure assisted one's jet is quite small relative to the outlet of the toilet bowl, so the speed of the outlet water isn't really much different than a good gravity flush toilet.

 

[Terry]

I was in this crawl space today.
4-1/4" of drop in 42 feet. It should have dropped 10-1/2" inches in that span.
The fittings here are leaking, and when washer is run, the toilet on the uphill side of this overflows. How fun!

The washer is the 2" on the far side. It looks like they are going to need a new line run with better grade.

 

[Anthony Beto]

Hi, Thanks. Does anyone know the footprint of the bowl for the American Standard Cadet Pro 14" rough. The spec sheet says it is 9 5/8" wide in the front but does not show if it tapers around the back. Thanks

 

[Anthony Beto]

Also if needed to try, would the pressure assist tank fit on the regular Cadet bowl? The bowls seem the same but AS would not authorize on the phone.. Thanks

 

[Jadnashua]

This is a guess...a gravity flush bowl will need to be different from a pressure-assisted flush one. What makes either of them flush is the inertia of the siphon jet. On a gravity flush bowl, to get that, you generally need a larger diameter jet (inertia is a product of the mass and the velocity) since it's not moving as fast...on a pressure assisted toilet, the jet size is smaller, and goes faster (thus able to generate the same amount of inertia), ending up with the same ultimate outlet wave of water. The siphon jet is what starts the waste and water in the bowl out of the toilet - its inertia pulls the stuff in the bowl out. It doesn't really push it out, as pull it out since the diameter of the siphon jet is quite small verses the outlet of the bowl to the drain. IMHO, switching toilets is a Band-Aid solution, at best, trying to cover up a deficiency of the drainage pipes, and may end up not working any better.

Good luck, and let us know if it ends up working. Probably sounds like a broken record, but a toilet is never designed to flush the drain pipes...it is designed to deliver the waste to them. IT is up to the design of the waste pipes to then take that waste to its ultimate destination. A toilet that doesn't clog, and clears its bowl is all they are designed to do. That wave of water all slows down very shortly after it enters the much larger drain from the toilet.

 

[Terry]

Also if needed to try, would the pressure assist tank fit on the regular Cadet bowl? The bowls seem the same but AS would not authorize on the phone.. Thanks

Absolutely not.
They work on different principles. I was at the Flushmate factory, and they were very clear on this. If you want a flushmate tank, it needs a matching bowl that "works" with a flushmate.
Kohler has the best Flushmate equipped toilet on the market. I would not bother with the AS bowl and tank.

 

[FullySprinklered]

I think that bean dip in the toilet demonstration was a little too graphic. They won't be seeing me down at El Sombrero for a while. Thanks, Terry.