Weak flush not getting to pit

[Anthony Beto]

Hi, Have a new home with walkout basement. Have Vespin II 1.28 with 14" rough unifit in basement bath. Moved in November 2015. Was getting sewer smell in basement. Turns out the waste / toilet paper was not getting pushed thru to the pit and was sitting backing up in pipe. Trying Ultramax 1.6 but it only comes with 12 inch rough and the anchor holes from the unifit are exposed. Also got a power flush gerber but that sticks way out into room. Any suggestions to get a strong flush with 14 inch rough and not see the anchor holes? I saw the Toto lloyd but that is crazy expensive. Ideas? Thoughts? Thx

 

[Reach4]

I think you are saying that the Vespin II flushed things into the pipe fine, but that you suspect there is not enough water being used to push things on to the pit. Does your pit have a vent to the roof?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Anthony Beto]

I think you are saying that the Vespin II flushed things into the pipe fine, but that you suspect there is not enough water being used to push things on to the pit. Does your pit have a vent to the roof?

Yes. It was checked and not clogged. Plumber and builder did trouble shooting for months. Finally came with a camera and routed the pipes. found lots of waste just sitting that needed to be pushed to pit.

 

[Jadnashua]

It is not uncommon for it to take more than one use to move the waste along in a pipe. But, your problem sounds more like improper slope to the drain line than a problem with the toilet. Another thing that can be problematic is if the pipe is not seated into the fittings all of the way, creating a ridge, or the pipes weren't deburred, and things get caught, or there's a belly (dip) in the pipe run.

The tell on that is if water is standing anywhere in the pipe. With proper slope, everything should flow out. The solids should end up moving a bit with each flush and not get hung up on anything or in one place.

With a proper, working trap, you should never get sewer gasses into the house from that source. If the roof vent is not placed well for the house, prevailing winds, etc., you might get some with the windows open.

The toilet's job is to evacuate the bowl...it is the drainage system's job to then move it where it needs to go. It shouldn't matter if it was a trickle or a deluge...it all should (eventually) end up at the lowest point.

 

[Smooky]

Check out this thread with a similar problem:
https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-a-joint-in-pvc-sewer-line.63178/#post-468351

 

[Reach4]

As I understand it, the toilet flushes fine.

If you wanted each flush to use more water to help move things along, you could get an adjustable fill valve and over-fill the bowl. The excess just goes into the sewer pipe.

You don't have a screen over your vent at the roof, do you? I think drain flies moving in via the roof vents have a positive effect on this. No, I am not kidding.

 

[Anthony Beto]

As I understand it, the toilet flushes fine.

If you wanted each flush to use more water to help move things along, you could get an adjustable fill valve and over-fill the bowl. The excess just goes into the sewer pipe.

You don't have a screen over your vent at the roof, do you? I think drain flies moving in via the roof vents have a positive effect on this. No, I am not kidding.

Hi, No screen on the vent pipe and the plumber said their was no water in the pipe just toilet tissue that was not dissolved and waste. The pipe walls are smooth according to him. The Vespin just flushing very week just there. I have 3 other Vespin II's on the upper level that all flush great and strong just not this one. Using a Ultramax 1.6 GMAX now and it flushes much better. Just sticks out in the room and have anchor holes showing in the tile. Just installed 2 days ago, waiting to see if smell comes back. On a side note. Did not use the Vespin basement for waste for 1 month and smell did not reoccur after pipes were routed

 

[Terry]

Rather than install a 1.6, pick up a flapper that floats for a longer time, or hold the handle down to drop more water from the tank.
Some of the new 3" flappers adjust for floatation by rotating the circle.

 

[Plumbs Away]

Here are two 1.6 gpf toilets with a 14" rough-in, a STRONG flush, and they won't break the bank:

American Standard Cadet PRO Compact Right Height Elongated, Model #215FC.004

Gerber Viper ADA Elongated, Model #VP-21-524
http://www.gerberonline.com/downloads/specs/Toilet/VP-21-524.pdf

 

[Anthony Beto]

Here are two 1.6 gpf toilets with a 14" rough-in, a STRONG flush, and they won't break the bank:

American Standard Cadet PRO Compact Right Height Elongated, Model #215FC.004

Gerber Viper ADA Elongated, Model #VP-21-524
http://www.gerberonline.com/downloads/specs/Toilet/VP-21-524.pdf

Thanks. The AS Cadet Pro looks like it would cover the anchor holes from unifit and not stick out too much further. Maybe using the unifit adapter and the pipe in the ground going horizontal without much vertical is causing the weak flush? The ultramax i am testing has been mych better but sticks out too far cause of 12 inch rough and does not cover holes from unifit. Any pros cons on the cadet pro? Thx

 

[Anthony Beto]

Hi. See that cadet also comes with pressure assist. Could I get 14 inch rough bowl and get the pressure assist tank separately? Would that work? Thx

 

[Jadnashua]

As I said before, all a toilet is designed to do is empty itself...what happens afterwards, is up to proper design of the drainage pipes. A pressure assisted toilet will dump the water faster (not really all that much), but once it hits that 3, and maybe 4" pipe, guess what? It slows down within a few feet to the same velocity as a good gravity flush toilet. You might have a bit better performance on a 3" pipe, but it's probably a 4" one under there, especially if it is carrying the rest of the house's waste. It really sounds like the slope is not proper on the pipe, or there's some other issue going on that replacing the toilet will not resolve.

 

[lanachurner]

Sounds like a case for installing an old, used water gulping toilet.
Forget all this 5LPF stuff.
Get yourself a 5GPF toilet and don't look back

 

[Terry]

Sounds like a case for installing an old, used water gulping toilet.
Forget all this 5LPF stuff.
Get yourself a 5GPF toilet and don't look back

Holding the handle down on what has uses three gallons with a 3" flush valve. It should destroy any slow flushing 5 gallon toilet out there.

 

[Jadnashua]

On a much larger scale, do you really think that one flush of a toilet on a municipal sewer system moves the waste all the way to the treatment plant? No, it is the subsequent flushes of thousands of others that moves things along. The slope is the most critical thing, not the volume. Try using your hose on the driveway to push dirt...lots of continuous volume, but things reach a limit on how far you can push it unless there's a good slope. Gravity is what moves things, and the slope is the biggest contributor to how much energy there is to perform the task.

 

[lanachurner]

If you cut the flow from your hose back by 70% it won't move the dirt in your driveway as far.

 

[Plumbs Away]

Thanks. The AS Cadet Pro looks like it would cover the anchor holes from unifit and not stick out too much further. Maybe using the unifit adapter and the pipe in the ground going horizontal without much vertical is causing the weak flush? The ultramax i am testing has been mych better but sticks out too far cause of 12 inch rough and does not cover holes from unifit. Any pros cons on the cadet pro? Thx

Both toilets I referenced are excellent and use readily available universal repair parts. The Cadet has American Standard's EverClean surface, which is comparable to Toto's CEFIONTECT. Some have complained of American Standard's quality control. If buying from a big box home center, take it out of the box and check it thoroughly before purchasing. Look closely for consistent, even glazing, bowl level (it should sit flat on the floor with no wobble), and any other obvious defects.

 

[Plumbs Away]

Hi. See that cadet also comes with pressure assist. Could I get 14 inch rough bowl and get the pressure assist tank separately? Would that work? Thx

The pressure assist models have an incomparably strong flush, but are expensive to maintain when they need repair -- and they will.

I would not recommend mixing and matching. Typically, the pressure assist model's bowl is specifically engineered to work with the pressure assist tank. I'm not going to say it wouldn't work, but it would be a major headache to buy it and try it and then have it not work. Unfortunately, it appears that American Standard does not offer any pressure assist models with a 14" rough-in.

Gerber, does have several, however. Go to gerberonline.com and type "Ultra Flush 14" rough" in their search engine.

The best bang for the buck that meets your criteria is, in my opinion and experience, the American Standard Cadet PRO. My parents have the 1.6 gpf models in their home and they are excellent. They have a strong, clean flush and NEVER clog. When the entire family is there, there are 16 of us constantly using the toilets and the only issues in 10 years of use have been routine maintenance (Fluidmaster seal and flapper replacement).

 

[Terry]

I took this video in Michigan at the Flushmate factory on a 1.1 gallon bowl.
A 1.6 gallon would even do better. If you opt for a pressure assist, the best one out there is the Kohler Highline K-3493

 

[Standardairconditioner]

Sounds like a case for installing an old, used water gulping toilet.
Forget all this 5LPF stuff.
Get yourself a 5GPF toilet and don't look back

After seeing that video with the clear DWV pipes, I am again happy for my 1950's Eljer 5-6GPF toilet, and continue to promote it. A lot of folks I meet are unhappy with their "low flushes", and your suggestion is exactly what I have been telling them.

I also noticed some folks with older toilets are not totally aware of today's "low flushes". I tell them about it, and by the time I am done, they will keep calling me back to fix their old ones indefinitely.