Troubleshooting water softener water quality change

[Reach4]

A right angle hose adapter may help too.

https://www.menards.com/main/rv-accessories/camco-90-degree-hose-elbow/22505/p-1444426142492.htm

you can clock it slightly by loosening

Or tightening. Adding an extra 1/8 turn on the drain valve may be possible.

 

[Water Pro]

A right angle hose adapter may help too.

https://www.menards.com/main/rv-accessories/camco-90-degree-hose-elbow/22505/p-1444426142492.htm


Or tightening. Adding an extra 1/8 turn on the drain valve may be possible.

you have to be careful with that. if overtightened, it can crack the tank tee.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[FruitfulPanda]

Thanks all. I ended up putting a hose on as is. I'm nearing the end of my rope with this damn thing (my entire water situation, not just the softener, although that obviously started this).

Earlier in the day i had mixed iron out in water and ran a regeneration to get the softener to draw it in and let it sit for 3 hours by unplugging and bypassing it, last chance at clearing it up before I have them replace. That part was easy but it finished its regeneration and then the radon filter tank filled with a few gallons of that water which was bad so I needed to refill that.

So I decided to replace the sediment filter because dirty and drain the pressure tank and pipes to get all the sediment out, and then the water came out as orange at the end again like tomato juice or similar so I am confused at this point and then I realized it was slowly draining water from the bottom of the water heater because i heard the bubbles gurgling in the pipe so that explains some of the the orange water before, sediment/iron in the bottom of the water heater but I had not expected the water heater to be able to drain vertically. The drain on the pressure tank is slightly lower but there's a lot of pipe in between, was stunned to have seen that.

So I blocked off the water heater inlet and refilled and then drained the tank/pipes several times to get my mistake out of there and it eventually runs clear, and then I replace the sediment filter, flush it as instructed and then refill the radon filter tank. Also on refill the filter gets visibly sediment covered, which is very strange because there is very little sediment in the water when draining via the hose, so I am thinking it is sediment scattered in the pipes that only comes out when the radon filter pulls the water fast.

However, problem this morning as I believe I am smelling residual iron out in the water, or a byproduct of it or something. The smell is very chlorine like and has never been present in the water before and it doesn't make much sense as at most about 1/7 of the radon filter tank had this water in it and it has since been flushed and refilled 2 to 3 times.

Clearly I know just enough to get into trouble but not actually fix anything. Perhaps if I'd blocked off the water heater inlet on my previous attempt and certainly if I didn't forget to bypass the water softener/trigger an actual regen after running the iron out through it I would be in a lot better shape. At this point my main concern is drinking the water which I have avoided.

If you've made it this far, thank you and I apologize for the ranting nature of it.

Edit: To clarify, the softener was bypassed after I realized the issue early on so that's not something I overlooked, and is still bypassed, so that can't be the explanation for the water still smelling.

 

[FruitfulPanda]

Throwing in the towel after 2 extended soaks with iron out and 2 with res care, going to make an appointment to get it replaced. It finished a normal regen and I checked out the water, still starts out brown and goes yellow, then very nearly clear. But if I let it set for half an hour or an hour and run it again, same result. Clearly it's badly fouled and iron just gets stirred up again and again and makes its way out with the water every time. On the bright side, the bypassed water is smelling much more normal.

Edit: It seems when the radon filter tank is completely empty the water heater starts draining as well, but it drains in after the radon is filtered so doesn't explain the sediment in the prefilter. Might explain some of the weirdness I've seen.

 

[FruitfulPanda]

A different guy from the same company came by and tested the raw water, 7 gpg and 2 ppm iron. Softener says it can only handle 1 ppm but he said it should be fine because it's dissolved iron which is easier for it to deal with which lines up with my research. Didn't think rebedding would be necessary. Suggested running several more regens and seeing if it clears up which he thinks it will.

 

[Reach4]

It takes awhile for the new water to make it into the system as there is a radon bubbler after the water softener.

Why after? I am not familiar with radon bubblers, but I imagine it bubbles air through water and expels the gas, which is intended to be air and a bit of radon.

If this has a method to deal with sediment/sludge, it could make a nice thing before the softener. That would let there be less ferrous (not solid) iron for the softener to deal with. Does all of your softened water pass through this bubbler? My suggestion presumes that.

Things to consider tuning might be a longer backwash, if appropriate to wash out ferric (solid) iron and other sediment better, and a longer brine draw, which slow-rinses the resin longer. So if there is a defect in the water shortly after regen, that longer slow rinse may improve that.

Re-thinking, I guess you may not want the backwash water going through the bubbler.

 

[FruitfulPanda]

Why after? I am not familiar with radon bubblers, but I imagine it bubbles air through water and expels the gas, which is intended to be air and a bit of radon.

If this has a method to deal with sediment/sludge, it could make a nice thing before the softener. That would let there be less ferrous (not solid) iron for the softener to deal with. Does all of your softened water pass through this bubbler? My suggestion presumes that.

Things to consider tuning might be a longer backwash, if appropriate to wash out ferric (solid) iron and other sediment better, and a longer brine draw, which slow-rinses the resin longer. So if there is a defect in the water shortly after regen, that longer slow rinse may improve that.

Re-thinking, I guess you may not want the backwash water going through the bubbler.

Good question. That is my understanding on how they work as well. It doesn't have a way to deal with sediment/sludge. The specifications for it say to have a 5 micron prefilter to avoid clogging it which is in place. I can think of some reasons you might not want it to be first in line though.

Mine is a 49 gallon tank with a 7 gallon drawdown, at which point it pulls water from the pressure tank, through the softener, the prefilter and then to it. It's possible if the filter clogs the water does not get delivered fast enough and could cause the softener to not have enough water at some point during a regen. Also I'm not clear on if the delivery pump of the radon filter is capable of keeping up with the in flow demand of the water softener during regen. I assume that wouldn't be an issue as it manages to keep up with a shower and multiple sinks running.

You are correct about the backwash water. During my various troubleshooting I bypass the radon filter to check the status of the water through the water softener alone. It would be difficult and very slow to realize an issue if that wasn't bypassed as it would take several drawdowns to pull in enough water for the quality to be noticeably impacted in that tank.

I'll try increasing the backwash times and the brine draw. Brine draw is already 90 minutes which seems at least 30 mins longer than is typical. I've also considered manually advancing to backwash and unplugging it to let it go for 2 or 3 times as long (currently 10 minutes).

 

[Reach4]

90 minutes and 10 minutes are a little longer than average.

One interesting data point would be to check the TDS of the yellow water vs the later water.

Also, during BF, you could monitor the TDS of the drain water. That would be mostly unchanged at first, and then maybe 10 minutes give or take, the TDS would jump way up, over-ranging the typical meter. Then it should decrease to close to the normal ppm by the time the BD cycle ends. So the brine might typically get sucked out in 15 minutes. Then the rest of the cycle, water slowly (laminar) flows through the tank to give the brine bolus time to react with the resin, and to rinse the brine out. If your brine were to take longer than 90/3, or 30 minutes, then the slow rinse may not be able to rinse away the brine plus whatever got pulled out of the resin. So that seems worth timing. Do a regen. Watch how long before the brine is all of the way down. It draws down to about the middle of the air check valve. At that point the air check closes, blocking air from being sucked in. Worth a test.

Maximum water draw on a 10x54 softener tank during regen is 2.4 gpm. The gpm is about proportional to the square of the tank diameter.

 

[FruitfulPanda]

Thanks Reach. That might be my next stop. I'm definitely not convinced this thing can repair itself, haven't seen much of a change despite 2 additional regens. That guy said he would call back this week to check if it has improved and schedule rebedding if not. Trying a long term soak of iron out that was preceded by an extended 30 min or so backwash. This is the last time I'm going to use that stuff though. Mixing it together even with a respirator on I worry about the fumes even after. I wonder if I'm not getting anywhere with these iron out soaks because I stop the brine and rinse too early. After 10 minutes everything was gone from the brine well except the regular amount at the bottom so I put it in bypass and unplugged it. Maybe I will let it run for another 10-15 mins of the cycle in a couple of hours and expose more of the resin to the iron out? I certainly can't make it any worse at this point since replacement is likely anyway.

 

[Reach4]

After 10 minutes everything was gone from the brine well except the regular amount at the bottom so I put it in bypass and unplugged it. Maybe I will let it run for another 10-15 mins of the cycle in a couple of hours and expose more of the resin to the iron out? I certainly can't make it any worse at this point since replacement is likely anyway.

I suggest you monitor the drain line to decide when to pull the plug, and bypass.

If you got a cheap TDS meter (does not measure softness) the ppm will be way off the scale when the salt+IO comes out. If it were just salt, you can use taste. Add IO, and I would not want to taste. You could make your own good-enough TDS meter with some probes that you figure out and your ohmmeter. Experiment with tap water vs brine tank water to roughly calibrate. Note that the TDS meter insulates the lines except for a small distance that the liquid touches.

If you judge by when the solution has been pulled out, the salt+IO may still be mostly in the top part of the media tank.

 

[FruitfulPanda]

I suggest you monitor the drain line to decide when to pull the plug, and bypass.

If you got a cheap TDS meter (does not measure softness) the ppm will be way off the scale when the salt+IO comes out. If it were just salt, you can use taste. Add IO, and I would not want to taste. You could make your own good-enough TDS meter with some probes that you figure out and your ohmmeter. Experiment with tap water vs brine tank water to roughly calibrate. Note that the TDS meter insulates the lines except for a small distance that the liquid touches.

If you judge by when the solution has been pulled out, the salt+IO may still be mostly in the top part of the media tank.

I was monitoring the brine tank and brine draw line which had gone from a steady stream to 95% air by the time I bypassed and unplugged. Measuring the TDS would be a great way to be sure. I just resumed it and it makes me wonder about taking it off bypass but leaving it unplugged. Would it just continuously rinse with the iron out? Perhaps there's a flaw.

Maybe I'll try iron out one more time but let more of the time elapse to get the iron out solution closer to the bottom. But I had assumed backwash moved the resin around anyway, such that top/bottom of the tank doesn't mean only that resin is getting extended time with the iron out, but if that is not the case I could see the benefit of doing another soak but letting it go further into the cycle before bypass and unplug.

 

[Reach4]

I was monitoring the brine tank and brine draw line which had gone from a steady stream to 95% air by the time I bypassed and unplugged.

The air check valve should close when the brine is exhausted. If you suck air when the brine is all sucked out, your air check valve is leaking.

I just resumed it and it makes me wonder about taking it off bypass but leaving it unplugged. Would it just continuously rinse with the iron out?

Take it out of bypass while it is still in brine draw cycle? I think that would keep the solution in the tank flowing. I could see taking it out of bypass for a couple minutes to move thing along. Then back into bypass to let some more area get treated. Repeat a few times maybe.

Maybe I'll try iron out one more time but let more of the time elapse to get the iron out solution closer to the bottom. But I had assumed backwash moved the resin around anyway, such that top/bottom of the tank doesn't mean only that resin is getting extended time with the iron out, but if that is not the case I could see the benefit of doing another soak but letting it go further into the cycle before bypass and unplug.

During brine draw, after the brine has been sucked out, the air check valve should close. Then a small flow continues through the resin at a slow pace. Laminar flow, so things intentionally don't get mixed up. With air added to the flow, that might upset things. How about you

Backwash 2, if you have one, does mix things up. But that is after the treatment solution has made its way down the drain.

 

[FruitfulPanda]

The air check valve should close when the brine is exhausted. If you suck air when the brine is all sucked out, your air check valve is leaking.

Well, perhaps the plot thickens. I have planned to clean out the brine tank once the salt lowers a bit more and as part of that would see if there was an issue with the air check valve, if it can't close all the way or anything. I last cleaned out the brine tank 2 years ago and it's possible the some worst remains of my water from the well pump replacement are still in play. It does look very clear while being drawn though.

Take it out of bypass while it is still in brine draw cycle? I think that would keep the solution in the tank flowing. I could see taking it out of bypass for a couple minutes to move thing along. Then back into bypass to let some more area get treated. Repeat a few times maybe.

Yes, I think I'll try that then.

During brine draw, after the brine has been sucked out, the air check valve should close. Then a small flow continues through the resin at a slow pace. Laminar flow, so things intentionally don't get mixed up. With air added to the flow, that might upset things. How about you

Backwash 2, if you have one, does mix things up. But that is after the treatment solution has made its way down the drain.

I don't have a Backwash 2, I wasn't aware of that possibility. I just meant that with an extended backwash the resin beads might get mixed up. But if that's not the case as it seems like you're saying, I have likely been only treating the top of the beads with extended contact with iron out and instead need to periodically resume the brine and rinse stage as you mentioned above.

Thank you again for all the helpful tips.

 

[FruitfulPanda]

Well I ended up getting the company that services it to rebed it. They brought a new tank and used the existing head. I took a look at the water inside before the old one was drained and taken and it was very orange and somewhat oily looking down in there. I replaced the sediment filter after the water softener after they left and about a day later it's cleaner than it's ever looked, nearly completely white still.

I'm considering what day override to use. It had previously been set to 8 but I have heard of going to 4 days if you have iron. But as I have 2ppm of ferrous iron and softeners deal with ferrous better I do wonder if that's necessary/recommended. I just want to keep it good for as long as possible so I am willing to have more frequent regens/continuing to periodically use iron out or res care.

 

[Reach4]

Well I ended up getting the company that services it to rebed it. They brought a new tank and used the existing head. I took a look at the water inside before the old one was drained and taken and it was very orange and somewhat oily looking down in there. I replaced the sediment filter after the water softener after they left and about a day later it's cleaner than it's ever looked, nearly completely white still.

I'm considering what day override to use. It had previously been set to 8 but I have heard of going to 4 days if you have iron. But as I have 2ppm of ferrous iron and softeners deal with ferrous better I do wonder if that's necessary/recommended. I just want to keep it good for as long as possible so I am willing to have more frequent regens/continuing to periodically use iron out or res care.

Consider citric acid or Iron Out to treat the salt to help deal with the iron.