Toilet Seal Done Wrong, Trying to Fix

[newbplumber]

Basically, someone glued in the toilet seal to the house plumbing. The foundation shifted (presumably) and the house plumbing (PVC) split into 2 pieces. The split is about 6" deep into the slab foundation. Part of the split includes the very top section of a 90 deg elbow and extends through that glued connection to the 6" straight piece that goes into the house. The crack is a pretty clean break, the primary challenges being it is angled and includes the joint for the 6" vertical piece and horizontal elbow.

Where I'm at now:
I've cut off the toilet flange (couldn't really see what was going on until I did this).

Deciding whether I should cut out the 6" straight piece which is broken, or if a reasonably solid repair job could be had on this broken joint.

What is the best approach forward from here?

Other considerations:
-Slab foundation
-House built in 1962 but new PVC sewage lines were installed by a previous owner (5-10 years ago).
-It will be rather difficult to remove the broken 6" piece because the collar from the elbow will not fit through the hole in the foundation.
-What set me on this quest in the first place is a rather noticeable sewage smell permeating the house. Plumber wanted to charge $1,200+ to hydro jet the lines & replace flanges on both toilets. Figured I could replace the flanges and see if that fixed it rather than shell out the cash.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Reach4]

What is the best approach forward from here?

One or two photos might describe what you have better.

Replacing would normally be the choice.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[newbplumber]

One or two photos might describe what you have better.

Replacing would normally be the choice.

So, I think I've answered my own question here. Due to the request for pics I noticed the break in the PVC is not as clean as I originally thought. And the theory of the PVC crack's origin seems to have shifted from "foundation movement" to "tree roots". One things for sure, we have certainly diagnosed our original problem. I sealed off the sewage line with excessive force and the normal 8 PM sewage smell has vanished for the first time in a week.

Back to the break, I couldn't get a good picture of the action but it appears to be clean through about 85% of the circle. But the area in which a small tree root appears to have entered is actually rather fragmented.

The toilet itself is only 3-4 ft from the exterior wall. I know there is some sort of PVC clean out located just outside of that exterior wall. I would venture to assume that the clean out is connected to my broken line. And further more, my other toilet backs up directly to the broken toilet. Meaning that clean out is a straight shot to a "T" which collects all toilet sewage from the house.

New Path Forward:
The true fix is to cut out that 90 deg elbow and replace it. Run another vertical 6" piece into the house then dry fit a toilet seal. Also, drill masonry screws to secure the toilet seal this time (going to refrain from calling previous plumbers bad names here).

To get here it means digging. Being from Texas, I'm not in the pay $85+/ hr to dig holes business. I'll go pick some guys from home depot to dig out enough dirt for me to access the problem from below. It's not exactly a $25 fix but it's also not a $2,500+ fix which is what I'm sure that crooked plumber would have wanted to walked away with.

Reach4, if you think there is a better way please let me know.

 

[Reach4]

I am not a plumber. I see 4 vertical cuts/cracks in the photo.

Is that the whole damage that you are referring to? If so, I can't see a tree root causing that. Were those caused by forces when you removed an inside closet flange, and the leak is actually out of sight? There seems to be some gap where that straight pipe hits the bend. Is there?

Or maybe you see other damage, but I did not detect the damage in the photos.

 

[newbplumber]

I am not a plumber. I see 4 vertical cuts/cracks in the photo.

Is that the whole damage that you are referring to? If so, I can't see a tree root causing that. Were those caused by forces when you removed an inside closet flange, and the leak is actually out of sight? There seems to be some gap where that straight pipe hits the bend. Is there?

Or maybe you see other damage, but I did not detect the damage in the photos.

Yes, the 4 vertical cuts are from where I used my reciprocating saw to remove the glued on flange. The gap you see where the straight pipe hits the bend is the damage. You can see in most pictures how the straight pipe is offset from the elbow, I tried to exaggerate this gap the best I could for pictures but it's still difficult to see.

It will be roughly a 6 ft tunneling exercise to access this elbow from the exterior. I'm thinking I could get by with a 2.5' X 3' rectangular tunnel. I've looked up some of the disadvantages to tunneling and the one that scares me the most is creating a voided area when replacing the dirt.

I think the only other option to tunneling is to expand the hole in the foundation and attempt to repair the elbow from inside. It's possible that I only need another 2" of circumference. But then my toilet flange wouldn't have anything to support it...

 

[Reach4]

Is that 4 inch ID pipe or 3 inch? If 4 inch, a really nice easy option opens up. If 3 inch, and it looks like 3 inch, there are still other options.

Does the elbow below seem intact? How much pipe glued into that elbow appears intact? If enough, you could glue a coupler on to that. If not much intact pipe comes out of the elbow, you could maybe use a RamBit to cut out the pipe. You would probably need an extension. Then glue in a pipe.

If you do excavate, filling with sand, such as play sand which does not have big rocks in it, avoids voids and gives the pipe a nice bed.

For support, the toilet flange, with the stainless ring ideally, will screw to the floor.

Edit: another possibility exists: http://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/3-schedule-40-pvc-pipe-inside-connector-s0302-30.html (http://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/resource-center/pipe-extenders-and-inside-connectors/) has one end that cements into the inside of a 3 inch schedule 40 size PVC pipe. I think DWV PVC pipe is normally that size.

 

[newbplumber]

Is that 4 inch ID pipe or 3 inch? If 4 inch, a really nice easy option opens up. If 3 inch, and it looks like 3 inch, there are still other options.

Does the elbow below seem intact? How much pipe glued into that elbow appears intact? If enough, you could glue a coupler on to that. If not much intact pipe comes out of the elbow, you could maybe use a RamBit to cut out the pipe. You would probably need an extension. Then glue in a pipe.

If you do excavate, filling with sand, such as play sand which does not have big rocks in it, avoids voids and gives the pipe a nice bed.

For support, the toilet flange, with the stainless ring ideally, will screw to the floor.

Edit: another possibility exists: http://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/3-schedule-40-pvc-pipe-inside-connector-s0302-30.html (http://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/resource-center/pipe-extenders-and-inside-connectors/) has one end that cements into the inside of a 3 inch schedule 40 size PVC pipe. I think DWV PVC pipe is normally that size.

I did not know those fittings existed and the ID is 3". The only hiccup to this solution is the break being angled through the coupling. I'm not sure there will be enough meat on the elbow to take an insert or allow for a RamBit. Tomorrow I will dig out the remaining broken pieces knowing now that I cannot incorporate it into a solution. After that I will get much better pictures and a much better view myself.

 

[Reach4]

Here is something that you might want to search out in a search engine" internal pvc cutter.

You would like to have a way to hold the depth constant, but I don't know what you could rig for that.

 

[newbplumber]

Here is something that you might want to search out in a search engine" internal pvc cutter.

You would like to have a way to hold the depth constant, but I don't know what you could rig for that.

Probably would have gone a little easier with the pvc cutter but a small hacksaw and big screw driver did the job pretty well. The bottom of the break line is about flush with the dirt. There may be 1/4" before the elbow bend but maybe not.

At this point I'm thinking I should dig it out. Even if I gave myself another 2" through the slab I don't think that would be enough. And taking more than 1/2" starts to get sketchy with res-eating the toilet seal, no? The only other solution I could think of is feeding in a 3" OD flex pipe of some sort then use high end epoxy to seal around it. Can't imagine tree roots breaking through a glob of epoxy. Not the best fix but it may put off digging for another 5 years.

 

[newbplumber]

To summarize the problem: Sewer gas smell was leaking into the house.

Process summary: I had good indication based on strength of smell that it was coming from master bathroom (either toilet, shower, or sink).
As basic starting point I started with toilet. I removed it and the wax ring. From there I noticed a crack in the PVC underneath the slab foundation. To get a better look I chipped out the toilet flange and broken piece of main line.

I had a good plumber come out and provide a quote for repair. It included tunneling as the only option. The cost was just over $5,000.

I decided to do the work myself and hire day labor to dig the hole. It took about 4 man days and just under $500 to get the hole dug (this included removing concrete piers from foundation repair). The tunnel entrance ended up being about 4 ft deep by 3X3 surface area. This was much deeper than I anticipated. After the tunnel entrance was dug it was rather easy tunneling under the house as this job had been performed back in 2011 & a large cavity under the foundation edge was already dug out. We ended up digging at an up angle about 4 ft inwards to the broken PVC pipe.

It was simple enough to cut off the old 3" PVC and install a coupling and new elbow.

Being under the house revealed another issue from the 2011 work. Leaks around the cast iron/ PVC joints were present because a rubber hose/ hose clamp connection were used. And although the leaks do not appear to be doing any damage it seems like a matter of time. I need to replace 3 joints. Rather than rubber fitting/ hose clamp (which will certainly deteriorate in 10 years or less) I plan to use high quality epoxy to joint PVC directly to cast iron.

Backfilling will be done using the same dirt. It will packed in both by hand and with a shortened tamper. I'm not expecting perfection but it will be better than what the "professionals" did 7 years ago. I will then reinstall the foundation piers and get them inspected by my foundation company. Then full backfilling which is expected to take another 2 man days (2 guys working 1 day).

All in with tools and labor, the project is expected to cost just under $1,000. Roughly $4,000 cheaper than the quoted price & higher quality work has been performed.