There is NOT enough jail time for this "tech"

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by Sylvan, Mar 26, 2019.

?

What punishment fits this crime

Poll closed Apr 2, 2019.
  1. Jail for life

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. BOIL him

    1 vote(s)
    100.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Occupation:
    plumbing - fire suppression - boiler inspector
    Location:
    New York
    Another case came in today a woman was severely l scalded and again I am the expert witness

    A low life told her that water heaters are not required if you have a boiler with a coil and he removed the water heater and used the tank less coil to supply hot water

    No tempering valve, no anti scald shower body or any protection from excessive hot water

    A friend of hers was staying over and took a shower when someone down stairs flushed a toilet with a low flow shower head she never had a chance to get out of the shower

    The "tech" had no formal training and this is part of the result

    When I took the hot water temperature it was 192.4 DEG F
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Occupation:
    plumbing - fire suppression - boiler inspector
    Location:
    New York
    The other pictures are to graphic to show
     
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  4. fullysprinklered

    fullysprinklered In the Trades

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2014
    Occupation:
    self-employed plumber-electrician doing residentia
    Location:
    Georgia
    Boil him for life.
     
    Sylvan likes this.
  5. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Occupation:
    Plumber
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Oh My! That is just horrible.
     
  6. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Occupation:
    plumbing - fire suppression - boiler inspector
    Location:
    New York
    This case I took for free and told the lawyers give her my share and hopefully the "ted\ch" will face jail time and loses every thing he ever had. There is no excuse for this to have ever happened
     
  7. JohnCT

    JohnCT Still learning..slowly

    Joined:
    May 16, 2018
    Location:
    Northeast
    My house was built in 1993 with a boiler and coil, and there's no external water heater and no mixing valve. Are you saying a water heater is still required with a coil? The shower valves are Symmons Temptrol (anti-scald). The Symmons Temptrol has two capped adjustments which I assume are a mixing arrangement right at the valve?

    The house was built to code at that time and our town has rigorous inspections. Are external mixing valves and/or external heaters required now?

    I just bought a new boiler to install along with a mixing valve because I'm going to repipe my house with PEX, and didn't want the temperature that high through the PEX.

    John
     
  8. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Occupation:
    plumbing - fire suppression - boiler inspector
    Location:
    New York
    I will NOT give any advice where plastic" is used on a potable water supply especially on hot water

    John for your information I only use Holby tempering valves (mixing) and although I consider them the best they are NOT Anti scald devices

    What makes being an expert witness so profitable is knowing how many unknowing people are out there installing devices they have no idea what they are doing

    For example some 12 child installs a shower body and figures she is set to go as it says "anti scald " and a few months later her baby sister is burned while showering

    How can this be after all the shower valve stated "anti scald" But the 12 year old did not read the fine print that mentions seasonal changes in water main temperatures and the valves have to be adjusted accordingly

    Also is this a hot water boiler or steam as Steam is much hotter at 1 PSI steam temperature is 213 deg F

    I never said a tank is required, but by adding storage your just about guaranteed an endless supply of HW

    By the way I was called to look at a system installed in Connecticut (Greenwich) the contractor used a vent pipe for the waste, put 3- 100 gallon tank on the 3rd floor with no floor drains and no means of protecting the occupants below if a tank should burst or the T&P discharges

    So much for CT rigorous codes because people do crazy things after the inspectors leave
     
  9. JohnCT

    JohnCT Still learning..slowly

    Joined:
    May 16, 2018
    Location:
    Northeast
    It's a regular boiler with a hot water coil.

    The inspections are not by state, but by local municipality, and vary. For instance, at the time I built my home, my town required 2x6 exterior wall construction minimum, where the next town over they can use 2x4 framing on attached garages and the city near me still allowed (allows?) 2x4 framing. My town also requires not only sheet rock in the garage, but taped and painted. Next town over, no.

    Of course, this all comes down to the inspector involved..

    Thanks for the info. I was going to use a Honeywell mixing valve but will check out the Holby.

    John
     
  10. Dana

    Dana In the trades

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Location:
    01609
    That would be very short but miserable life at 192.4F.
     
  11. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Occupation:
    plumbing - fire suppression - boiler inspector
    Location:
    New York
    She did not die but she does have decades of rehab and scars that will never go away I so far written over 40 pages against the building , the installers etc
     
  12. Dana

    Dana In the trades

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Location:
    01609
    That was legal (but stupid) in 1993. It's been at least a couple of decades since either a tempering valve or thermostatic mixing valve has been required on the output of ANY water heater (not just tankless coils) in Massachusetts to any plumbing that distributes water to sinks & bathing, though untempered water is still allowed for distribution to laundry and dishwashers.

    Shower mixers and aquastat settings on water heaters are specifically excluded as alternative methods in current code.

    It's still legal to use tankless coils for domestic hot water, but not without a tempering valve or thermostatic mixing valve. The installer is on the hook for setting it to 120F, or lower, but the homeowner can set it to something else, but the liability for after the fact tweaking to higher temps isn't transferred to the installer.

    Tankless coils on boilers are a pretty crappy solution for domestic hot water in any event. It requires oversizing the the boiler for the space heating load and a higher idling temperature, both of which have fairly significant impacts on as-used efficiency (in a distinctly negative direction.) In the vast majority of cases installing a boiler right-sized for the space heating load and a indirect fired hot water tank sized for the largest tub that needs filling (with a thermostatic mixing valve on the output of the indirect) is by far better, delivering higher flow rates and overall service on the domestic hot water, and higher efficiency on the system as a whole.
     
  13. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Occupation:
    plumbing - fire suppression - boiler inspector
    Location:
    New York
    "The installer is on the hook for setting it to 120 F, or lower"

    Last year I testified in court the non licensed installer set the water heater to low and he was directly responsible for the inhabitants to get sick as you need at least 140 Deg F to kill bacteria that would otherwise use the tank as incubator

    Also setting the aquastat to 120 deg is not going to stop anyone from being scalded because of "stacking" which is as follows

    Hot water rises cold water is dense like waking into the ocean or swimming pool so the hottest water is far,far away above the aquastat probe

    It is actually higher than the T&P in most cases so the T&P cannot actually sense as the uppermost temperature can be over 15-20 deg higher

    Also as the tank gets older mineral deposits act as an insulator so the actual water temperature reading is higher then the SET temperature

    Ideally the water from a tank would be over 140 deg F to burn off chlorine and bacteria inside the tank and a direct line of hot water would be piped to the dishwasher and washing machine and a tempering valve set to 120 Deg and ani scald devices are installed point of use such as a tub or shower 120 Deg Max and a bidet 110 Max

    For my commercial accounts we need 160 -180 Deg F in lieu of chemicals for sterilization and temperting the water for the other fixtures

    Because no one code fits all applications this is why most plumbers are aware of the white pages, AGA, ASME, NFPA and local and state and federal codes plus a few more the local guys decide to throw in

    This burn case to less then 15 minutes to look at and over 3 hours writing reports which sections of the code and which code was violated besides generally accepted plumbing practices 27" heat sink for example by the water heater or the tempering valve
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
    Dana likes this.
  14. Dana

    Dana In the trades

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2009
    Location:
    01609
    Setting the
    That's completely misconstruing my statement, barking up the wrong tree.

    To clarify:

    An installer setting the tempering valve to 140F or higher would be violating the code- 120F is the upper limit.

    An installer setting the tank to less 140F would also be violating the code- that's the lower limit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2019
  15. Sylvan

    Sylvan Still learning

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2004
    Occupation:
    plumbing - fire suppression - boiler inspector
    Location:
    New York
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