Softener issues & questions

Users who are viewing this thread

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
So I have a fleck 5000 proflow sxt, 80k grain capacity, 2.5 cu ft Purolite SST60 resin (approx 8 yrs old). With a Fe filter before the softener, fleck 5810 stx with 1.5 cu ft of KL (approx 5 yrs old)

Couple issues I've been having are as follows;. Softener not metering water flow. Think I narrowed it down to the cable. Removed the turbine and it moved freely. So will order the replacement cable, 19791-01, and replace it.

Next would be the softener has been overfilling the brine tank. I replaced the brine tube from softener to tank and the ferrules and it has good suction.

How long does resin last? My hardness is about 30 gpg and 3 ppm of clear iron (if I recall from last testing, I need to get it tested again)

Regarding my Fe filter, how long does KL last? How often should you regenerate that filter? Seems like I still get some iron in my water.

I'll try and get water tested tomorrow and all my softener settings as well.

If I replace my softener resin, do I have to replace it with the same amount?

Also. Is KL still a better option over Birm?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,461
Reaction score
3,659
Points
113
Location
IL
How long does resin last? My hardness is about 30 gpg and 3 ppm of clear iron (if I recall from last testing, I need to get it tested again) Chlorine degrades resin. So with your well, I would think over 20 years if you treat for iron occationaly. Iron Out or ResCare and some other stuff can help the resin to shed iron. People have discussed ways to treat with Iron Out.


If I replace my softener resin, do I have to replace it with the same amount? Why would you not? What is your tank size. With a 54x10 tank, 1.5 cuft is the common amount.

Is KL still a better option over Birm? Probably, but KL needs more backwash. Does better on iron. Does much better on H2S. So KL works better if there is enough oxygen vs not enough oxygen, or an oxidant can be injected into the water before the KL. I am not a pro. I have not used KL or BIRM.

 

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
Was just a thought of reducing the resin. It's a 13x54 tank.


You say more backwash.... Meaning more often or gpm? My well pumps about 10-12gpm. Have regenerating every 4 days. Nothing in the line for oxidizing.


Once I get the softener working correctly , I'll give it a good cleaning. I've tossed in iron out in the brine tank before, dissolved it first.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,461
Reaction score
3,659
Points
113
Location
IL
The treatment can involve stopping the flow at the right time and let a stronger IO solution sit in contact with the resin for a few hours. The bypass valve can stop the flow.
 

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
Settings are as follows:

DF Gal
VT df 1b
Ct Fd
Nt 1
C 60k
H 42
RS SF
SF 30
DO 7
RT 2:30
BW 20
BD 55
RR 8
BF 18
FM t0.7
Brine Valve 0.5gpm

I'll get my water tested today for hardness and Fe.

Any ideas why it's filling more than usual?

How often should my Fe filter backwash itself?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,461
Reaction score
3,659
Points
113
Location
IL
Any ideas why it's filling more than usual? Assuming it is your softener, it should regen the night after you have used 1000 gallons or 7 days, whichever is first. That is determined by your settings.

How often should my Fe filter backwash itself?
They differ. Depends on media and other factors. Daily, every 3 days would probably be more common of the possibilities.

It is important to have enough backwash GPM while maintaining enough pressure. 30 PSI is enough pressure.
 

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
Any ideas why it's filling more than usual? Assuming it is your softener, it should regen the night after you have used 1000 gallons or 7 days, whichever is first. That is determined by your settings.

????? that really doesn't answer my question at all. I realize it regenerates after 1000gal or 7 days. But that doesn't explain why it is overfilling.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,461
Reaction score
3,659
Points
113
Location
IL
Right. I interpreted filling more as more often, and you meant to a higher level.

What level is it filling to -- to where the safety float floats, which stops the brine coming in?

That can have more than one cause. Could be you don't suck brine, but refill at the correct rate when refilling.
It could be the brine valve is leaking and filling continuously-- not just during regen.

A softener setting is not causing this problem.
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,311
Reaction score
603
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
Since water is entering the brine tank during the Brine Draw cycle, I anticipate rebuilding the valve will resolve the issues. The seals, spacers and various 'O' rings and brine valve are normal wear items that require periodic replacement. If the piston has any scratches or if there is any flaking Teflon coating, then the piston will also require replacement. To view the correct rebuild procedure, see forum member Ditttohead's video linked below.

I anticipate your 13" diameter media tank will contain 2.5 cubic feet of resin. Your current 60,000 grain capacity setting is correct as 24K grains per ft3 is the usual recommendation to achieve the best balance of efficiency, capacity and water quality. 8 lbs salt per ft3 (20 lbs total) will achieve 3,000 grains per lb efficiency.

For 20 lbs salt to be dissolved, 6.66 gallons water will be needed to enter the brine tank each cycle. With the current BLFC setting of 18 minutes X 0.5 GPM BLFC will result in 9 gallons water entering the brine tank, which is one reason for too much water to be within the brine tank.

If the KL filter is effectively removing iron prior to the softener, then the Hardness setting for the softener should not need to anticipate removal of any iron or manganese.


edit: 3 ppm iron is considerable. Suggest increasing the KL Backwash frequency to daily initially, and possibly reducing the frequency to not less than ever 2-days ongoing.
 
Last edited:

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
I'm manually regenerating the softener now and in the Brine Draw Cycle to see if drawing brine. started with about 16" of water in the tank. at the end of BD, it still had about 7-8" of water left.

I'm thinking I'll skip the BF step of this manual regeneration and then run another regeneration right after and check the water level after that is complete. It should draw out all the water and then refill from scratch.

I've reset my Fe filter to daily regen to see how that helps. I'm also ordering new seals and injector o-ring.

How can i tell what size injector to order?
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,311
Reaction score
603
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
The appropriate quantity of brine should be completely drawn from the brine tank within approx the 1st 15-minutes of a usual 60-minute Brine Draw cycle. The remaining ~45-minutes will be a Slow Rinse to continue to slowly push the brine through the resin tank and out to drain while also rinsing the resin with fresh water.

Your current 55-minutes Brine Draw setting should have been sufficient to draw all of the brine from the brine tank, even if the remaining Slow Rinse time was insufficient.

Check which injector color is currently installed as it maybe too small or may require a longer Brine Draw setting.
 

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
it normally only has about 8" of water in the tank. so once I get the correct amount in the tank, I'll check how long it takes to draw out.
 

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
I anticipate your 13" diameter media tank will contain 2.5 cubic feet of resin. Your current 60,000 grain capacity setting is correct as 24K grains per ft3 is the usual recommendation to achieve the best balance of efficiency, capacity and water quality. 8 lbs salt per ft3 (20 lbs total) will achieve 3,000 grains per lb efficiency.

For 20 lbs salt to be dissolved, 6.66 gallons water will be needed to enter the brine tank each cycle. With the current BLFC setting of 18 minutes X 0.5 GPM BLFC will result in 9 gallons water entering the brine tank, which is one reason for too much water to be within the brine tank.


edit: 3 ppm iron is considerable. Suggest increasing the KL Backwash frequency to daily initially, and possibly reducing the frequency to not less than ever 2-days ongoing.

I went ahead and ordered a new valve. The brine cam and piston rod were broken when I took apart the valve as well as the piston was flaking and seals damaged. Parts cost vs a new 5800 valve wasn't much, so went new.


So I follow your math, but where do you get 6.6 gallons to dissolve the 20# of salt? I'll be setting up my new valve and not sure what BLFC will be in there so I'll need to know.
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,461
Reaction score
3,659
Points
113
Location
IL
6.66*3=~20

What hardness are you dealing with?
How many people using the water?
How much residual iron would you estimate makes it past the KL?
What is the BLFC gpm on the new 5800SXT?

If you provide those, I can print out some suggested settings..
 

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
6.66*3=~20

What hardness are you dealing with?
How many people using the water?
How much residual iron would you estimate makes it past the KL?
What is the BLFC gpm on the new 5800SXT?

If you provide those, I can print out some suggested settings..
-Will get it tested again closer to setting it up. Around 30gpg though (leaving for vacation tomorrow morning for a week)
- 3 people
- I can have that tested when I get my water tested, just sample after the KL
- not sure yet, they're setting it up for a 13" tank.



6.66 * 3 = ~20 ............. is 3 a common value? 3# of salt per 1 gallon of water for saturation?
 

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,461
Reaction score
3,659
Points
113
Location
IL
Yes, 3 is a common value, and even when looked at with more decimal places, the number is very close to 3.0 for sodium chloride at common room temperatures.

I also should have asked about how much resin (cuft). A 13x54 tank would typically have a 2.5 cuft of resin. Do get gravel.

The BLFC should be on a label. Also include the injector number also.
With 2.5 cuft of resin, I would prefer a #0 Injector - Red (with a longer BD) or #1 Injector - White injector, but #2 Injector - Blue is acceptable and common.

Get a Hach 5-B hardness test on order. It can check your raw hardness, but is also useful for checking residual hardness.
 
Last edited:

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
yes, 2.5 cu ft of resin in my tank with gravel. none of that is changing.

I'll let you know the BLFC and injector color next week.

thanks
 

JustaDIYer

Member
Messages
80
Reaction score
1
Points
8
Location
Novi, Michigan
So I'm back and have my new valve installed.

Says on the sticker....0.25 gpm
Injector #1

Set it up for H=30 till I can get it tested.

I set all parameters the same but I set the BF to 28 min. Correct?
 

Bannerman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,311
Reaction score
603
Points
113
Location
Ontario, Canada
but I set the BF to 28 min. Correct?
27 minutes X 0.25 GPM BLFC = 6.75 total gallons to.enter the brine tank

6.75 X 3 lbs per gallon = 20.25 lbs dissolved salt will be sufficient to regenerate 60,000 grains capacity per cycle in your 2.5 ft3 softener.
 
Last edited:

Reach4

Well-Known Member
Messages
35,461
Reaction score
3,659
Points
113
Location
IL
Trying out a new format....
5800SXT System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft​
7.8​
A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)​
BLFC​
0.25​
Brine Refill rate GPM​
cubic ft resin​
2.5​
Same as (nominal grains/32,000)​
Raw hardness​
27​
including iron etc​
Estimated gal/day​
180​
60 gal per person typical calc​
Est days/regen​
10.6​
presuming days each use reserve capacity​
Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF​
Gal​
Units​
VT​
5800​
Valve type​
RF​
dF2b​
Downflow, Double Backwash​
CT​
Fd​
Meter Delayed regen trigger​
C​
59.1​
capacity in 1000 grains​
H​
31.1​
Hardness grains after comp factor​
RS​
rc​
rc says use gallons vs percent​
RC​
180​
Reserve capacity gallons​
DO​
30​
Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)​
RT​
2:00​
Regen time (default 2 AM)​
B1​
6​
Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]​
Bd​
60​
Brine draw minutes​
B2​
4​
Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]​
RR​
6​
Rapid Rinse minutes [5...10]​
BF​
26​
Brine fill minutes​
FM​
T0.7 ??​
Do not know default flow meter yet​

I entered 27 for raw hardness, but raised that to 31 with the high-hardness compensation.

Let me know what the original FM value was.

This would be another format:

5800SXT System info (not programmed)
salt lb/cuft : 7.8 ; A choice ( efficiency vs capacity)
BLFC : 0.25 ; Brine Refill rate GPM
cubic ft resin : 2.5 ; Same as (nominal grains/32,000)
Raw hardness : 27.0 ; including iron etc
Estimated gal/day 180.0 ; 60 gal per person typical calc
Est days/regen 10.6 ; presuming days each use reserve capacity


Fleck 5800SXT Settings:
DF = Gal ; Units
VT = 5800.0 ; Valve type
RF = dF2b ; Downflow, Double Backwash
CT = Fd ; Meter Delayed regen trigger
C = 59.1 ; capacity in 1000 grains
H = 31 ; Hardness grains after comp factor
RS = rc ; rc says use gallons vs percent
RC = 180 ; Reserve capacity gallons
DO = 30 ; Day Override (typ 28 if no iron/Mn)
RT = 2:00 ; Regen time (default 2 AM)
B1 = 6 ; Backwash 1 (minutes) [3...10]
Bd = 60 ; Brine draw minutes
B2 = 4 ; Backwash 2 (minutes)[3...10]
RR = 6 ; Rapid Rinse minutes [5...10]
BF = 26 ; Brine fill minutes
FM = T0.7 ?? ; Do not know default flow meter yet
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks