Size of non-submersible pump... and tank?

[Mollymoe]

I have a 1200 gal cistern shared with a neighbor who uses the submersible pump. I like the above ground so I can manage maintenance and replacement more easily. From the cistern 8 feet deep the water will need to be pumped (all things considered) 280 feet at 8 GPM (peak). I am in a very mild climate and the pumphouse is built on the cistern. I seek to get a shopping list for a non-submersible setup (stainless steel tank). Unless there is good reason to drop another pump in the cistern. It is a small thing, but any temperature rise in the water could be very bad. If no other help but the "most likely" size of the pump and pressure tank, even that would be great. Note: I am assuming at least one-inch pipe which travels 250 feet to the would-be house with an overall terrain climb of 12'. I am really finding it hard to know what to buy, or what to even ask of an installer. So far my experience has been with someone who was very confident, but wrong about what was in front of them. So I want to learn enough to make a smart purchase (I'm not cheap, just not a gambler, either) lol . Thanks!

 

[Valveman]

Sounds like you have a 280' deep well feeding a cistern and need a booster pump for the cistern. The size of the pump depends on how much water will be used at any one time. But the set up is basically the same for pumps up to about 25 GPM.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Valveman]

You can also do the same with a submersible well pump in the cistern. The 1HP, 33 GPM, 230V, Hallmark pump seems to be working very well for the price.

 

[Mollymoe]

Thank you!!! That is great! I am leaning hard on staying out of the cistern. So as I am getting older, a good quality pump/motor with good maintenance might be easier for replacement, repair, and cistern cleaning. I am thinking 1HP? to pump 250 feet with an overall 12' rise by the end. 1" to 1 1/4" PVC pipe? Please straighten me out on these details, too! I'm so excited to get help. It's just not to even be hired. lol

 

[Mollymoe]

Sounds like you have a 280' deep well feeding a cistern and need a booster pump for the cistern. The size of the pump depends on how much water will be used at any one time. But the set up is basically the same for pumps up to about 25 GPM.

View attachment 93940

I like this!!! Thank you! I did reply, and now I don't see it. lol Plus, it shows I'm from Bothell. I did live there for 2 years 30 years ago. Now I live in Shelton, but my project is in Port Townsend. The well itself is around 270ft deep, but it has its pump up to the cistern. My neighbor, slightly down from the cistern has a small submersible to filters and then to their house. I am 12' up and about 240 feet away, therefore, it is safe to say a 280' push? So I want to, I think, use a system like you're showing me. Only, being a welder, I like stainless steel tanks. So 1HP 230v pump/motor? 3 or 5 gal tank? 1", or 1 1/4" PVC main water pipe? And, sorry... any recommendations for a really well-built (simple... over bells and whistles) pump? Will I need to prime it and if I do, is there a simple inlet for that? Thank you Thank you!!

 

[Reach4]

So I want to, I think, use a system like you're showing me. Only, being a welder, I like stainless steel tanks. So 1HP 230v pump/motor? 3 or 5 gal tank? 1", or 1 1/4" PVC main water pipe?

You want what tank to be stainless? A new cistern? Pressure tank?

 

[Mollymoe]

I'm not seeing if my replys get sent. I think I have the use of the word "head" wrong. This non-submersible pump will pull water from 8' down (inside the concrete cistern) and then send water through a 1 1/4"(?) pipe 280' (240' run with a 12' elevation [which mostly happens within a 20' run, not slow and steady]). So is "head" the distance it sucks water out of the cistern and how do I convey the above ground distance, too, to figure out what HP? Thanks Again!

You want what tank to be stainless? A new cistern? Pressure tank?

Sorry, pressure tank.

 

[Reach4]

Zilmet Pressure Tanks

The Zilmet 304 Stainless Steel expansion tanks with a food grade internal membrane, are fit for all applications near coastal areas where the presence of brackishness or harsh chemical environments that rapidly corrode all parts made of plain steel.

www.aquascience.net

Not available in larger sizes, but if you use a CSV, you would not need a larger tank.

It is not normally the shell that is the failure point on a pressure tank.

For conveying vertical distance, I sometimes say change in altitude. I am not a pro.

Valveman tends to like the cast iron Goulds jet pumps. They can have different jets that trade pressure vs volume. The J10S would be the normal 1 HP version. https://www.aquascience.net/goulds-j10s-single-nose-shallow-well-jet-pump-1hp
https://www.aquascience.net/downloa...goulds_js_j5s_j5sh_j7s_j10s_j15_jet_pumps.pdf see the table on page 3.

For the pressure drop in 20 ft altitude rise, figure that is about 10 psi. That is a slight overestimate. The pressure drop due to altitude and the pressure drop from flow friction add. http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php is a simpler calculator for the friction loss.

A 1 HP jet pump has roughly the pumping power of a 1/2 HP submersible. Much of that power turns to heat, and the water accepts the heat to cool the motor.

 

[Valveman]

The pump will need to be at the cistern. You cannot suck water that far effectively. With the cistern being blow ground a jet pump would need a drop pipe with a foot valve in the cistern. Then a PK1A attached to the jet pump could give you 40/60 pressure, which means you would have 30/50 and 40 PSI constant at the house. A jet pump will need to be primed, a submersible in the cistern would not. Any 3/4HP or 1HP jet pump that has a max pressure of 70+ will work with the 40/60 PK1A system.

 

[Mollymoe]

Would it be clearer to say

The pump will need to be at the cistern. You cannot suck water that far effectively. With the cistern being blow ground a jet pump would need a drop pipe with a foot valve in the cistern. Then a PK1A attached to the jet pump could give you 40/60 pressure, which means you would have 30/50 and 40 PSI constant at the house. A jet pump will need to be primed, a submersible in the cistern would not. Any 3/4HP or 1HP jet pump that has a max pressure of 70+ will work with the 40/60 PK1A system.

Yes, the pump house is built right on top of the cistern lid. The pump would be basically on top of the cistern. The cistern is a cement 1200 gal septic tank (sort of). I asked they give me three 6" or 8" holes and a manhole (although, so far only women have gone in). One hole for the neighbor, one for me, and one for a handpump (which has reinforcement for just that). The neighbor has a submersible and they are downhill from the cistern. I need to pull from the cistern and receive water 240 feet away with a 12' increase in altitude. So I understand I would need a drop pipe and foot valve going to a 1 HP jet pump with a PK1A attached. And the whole electrical gambit, which is its own shut-off mini panel and a 230v 30Amp breaker? I understand the Jet pump must be primed. Is there modern additions that will shut it down if it loses its prime? I grew up with that, though the pump was old, often quit and we were drawing out of an old claw-foot bathtub over a 25-foot cliff plus another 100-foot run to the other claw-foot tub where my mother hoped not to be electrocuted shutting off her water. Thank you, I'll look up the suggestions. So agreed 1 1/4" mainline pipe? May feed a house and a barn. The little additional heat in the pumphouse will be a blessing, while in the cistern even a few degrees rise could be an increase in growth.

 

[Valveman]

To protect the pump from a loss of prime you can use a Cycle Sensor.

Cycle Sensor Pump Monitors – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

The Cycle Sensor is a pump system monitor that detects Rapid Cycle and Dry Run and reacts to either of these conditions by shutting down your pump. It does not prevent these events but protects your pump from damage in the event they occur. Videos with more information can be seen here.

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[Mollymoe]

To protect the pump from a loss of prime you can use a Cycle Sensor.

Cycle Sensor Pump Monitors – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

The Cycle Sensor is a pump system monitor that detects Rapid Cycle and Dry Run and reacts to either of these conditions by shutting down your pump. It does not prevent these events but protects your pump from damage in the event they occur. Videos with more information can be seen here.

cyclestopvalves.com

Thank you! I will add that to my list. Any thoughts on the size of pump I need? and pressure tank?

 

[Valveman]

To use a 40/60 switch the pump needs to be able to make at least 70 PSI max. There are all kinds of pumps out there. I picked this one as the lowest price I saw. You can spend much more with a pump like a Goulds J10S, but I am not sure it is worth it. What kills pumps is cycling on and off. So, if you control it with a Cycle Stop Valve even the cheaper pumps should last a long time.

LEO 1 HP 115/230-Volt Cast Iron Shallow Well Jet Pump SJC100-1 - The Home Depot

LEO well pumps are used to pump water from a groundwater well into your house. There are three types of well pumps: shallow well jet pumps. Choice of pump is based on the different depths of the well.

www.homedepot.com

The 4.5 gallon size tank as comes with a Cycle Stop Valve in the PK1A is as large a tank as you need.

PK1A Pside-Kick Pressure Tank Kit – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation Installation Video General Information Typical Applications Specifications Dimensions Installation Instructions Troubleshooting VFD Controller Replacement WARNING: This product can expose you to chemicals including nickel, which is known to the State of California...

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[henjj]

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