Shallow well pump installation

[Victoria-nola]

Hi, new here, home/farm owner with many projects to do. We are aspiring market gardeners, would like to do a small goat dairy, but for this summer we're setting up a 1/4 acre field of watermelons as they do well in our area and there is a market for local melons. For the moment what we need is to start using the well that's here, it's 60 years old or more with a thick ceramic casing in very good condition, about 6" inner diameter, top of casing is ~30-in above ground level. Well is on high point of gently sloping property along with house and barn. We want to use the well to irrigate our garden and fields. Water looks and smells great but have not had it tested yet. We need to keep our expenses very low. If anyone can help me with my questions I would be very grateful.

The static water level is 10-ft below top of casing, bottom of well is 20-ft below top of casing. Do not yet know flow rate. We have been informed that it's not possible to really test for flow rate with a hand pump. Also need to pump out standing water in order to get a fresh sample for testing. So even though I do want both a hand pump and an electric, it seems that we need to start with electric.

Thinking to use an external shallow-well jet pump with integrated pressurized tank, such as http://www.harborfreight.com/1-hp-s...th-pressure-control-switch-950-gph-63407.html Or, what would be a good idea if this type is not a good choice? What we want to do is run drip irrigation in sections, which would be set up according to what our flow rate/pump rate can handle. I have a bunch of questions but my first is, would the 5-gal tank model be capable of running drip irrigation for periods of time, or should we plan to fill a reservoir and gravity feed (or possibly have to attach another pump) for drip irrigation? We already have several food-safe 55-gal light-blue barrels that we could connect in series to create a reservoir.

Another set of questions has to do with setup. First, since I know I want to add a hand-pump (cheap one such as https://www.amazon.com/Simmons-1160...8&qid=1486704949&sr=8-1&keywords=pitcher+pump) in the future, it seems possible to install said hand-pump by going through the same well cap as the jet pump (http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...well-seal-6-in-x-1-1-4-in-x-1-in?cm_vc=-10005) If so, that's what I'd want to buy to start with. And if so, what would that installation altogether look like? Can the hand pump still sit directly on top of the seal, with the electric pump installed very nearby? Or would we need to offset the hand pump as well? I wouldn't mind if the whole thing could be made to look charming as well, but I guess that's another issue.

I saw where some well threads here mentioned poly pipe for use with pumps and I am very interested in that, not being a fan of pvc/solvents. Is this the stuff? http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...flexible-coil-pipe-1-in-x-100-ft?cm_vc=-10005

Thank you for any thoughts.

 

[Victoria-nola]

Realized I should add something here, which is that I'm actually concerned about noise. Maybe a submersible would be a better choice because of that? Or, can we soundproof an enclosure for the pump? Our climate is hot and humid, so I would worry about the pump overheating if too enclosed. otoh, we wouldn't be running it constantly so maybe noise isn't that big a deal. Anyway, we really need advice.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

If your well has the space for a submersible, you want to go that route. Besides being quiet, there is never a priming problem. It will use roughly half of the power of a jet pump for a similar job. A 1/2 HP 10 to 15 GPM pump would be a common for such a shallow well.

How large is your casing?

While the poly you pointed to may be good, there was no spec information such as ASTM D2239 spec, where IPS ID is held to a size that they make the barbs for.

For hand pumps, Bison and SimplePump are good for deeper wells. I expect there are cheaper pumps that would do your job for you.

 

[Victoria-nola]

Hi, Reach4, thank you for replying. I just finally moved the big rock that is on top of the casing and got a real measurement. It is 8" interior diameter, but the top flares out to 11" for the last 2.5". Casing rises 25.5" from ground level. I have attached a photo-- the green t-posts are small ones, hammered in to keep our pet pigs from scratching themselves on the well casing.

Great to understand more about the submersible, especially about power use, but yeah the noise issue is real. The hand pump will be just to get a drink or fill a bucket, can't spend $600 on that right now, so it will have to be the cheaper.

I wonder if anyone else knows which poly pipe is usable. It was stated in other threads but no specific product was linked to.

 

[Reach4]

Usually for wells the poly pipe is ASTM D2239 where IPS ID is held and OD varies with
PSI ratings. http://www.charterplastics.com/pipe/ has dimensions.

D2239 is a size standard AFAIK. That Tractor Supply may well be to that size. When you attach the barbed fittings, you use 2 worm-gear stainless steel hose clamps. You put the worms on opposite sides rather than side by side.

You heat the pipe to get it on the barbed fitting. Hot (been boiling) water is safer than using a flame for those who are not practiced.

A submersible pump usually has a built-in check valve. You would not want another check valve.

You can tape the wire to the pipe with Scotch 33+ or Scotch 66 electrical tape. There are others, but those are widely available.

A two-wire pump uses 3 wires including ground. It does not need a controller -- just a pressure switch and pressure tank. 1/2 HP pumps are available in 115 and 230 volt versions. Usually you would go with whatever the previous pump used.

 

[Victoria-nola]

Electrical: There is no evidence that there was ever a pump on this well, it hasn't been in use for decades. Going to go with 115 because that's what's available to us from nearby to well.

Thank you for all this information. About the pressure tank. Is it possible to use the submersible pump to fill a series of 55-gal (food safe) poly drums which we would then use either gravity-feed or small pump to irrigate from? iow, is the submersible *required* to pump into a pressurized tank, or is a storage tank usable? I'm thinking maybe to have a timer instead of a pressure switch if we fill our reservoir instead of a pressure tank. So that we'd have to turn on the pump ourselves to fill the reservoir? Or maybe a float switch?

 

[Reach4]

Yes, those things you suggest will work. If filling drums or cistern, you would use a float switch or that manual method. There are devices that can turn off the pump for a while if the pump starts pumping dry. I would go manual initially, and watch if the well draws down much while you pump.

Still, if the well produces enough, having the submersible pump generate pressure is nice. You could use a 44 gallon pressure tank, or a CSV. https://cpkits.com/collections/frontpage/products/pk1a

 

[Victoria-nola]

Ok, great. We've discussed it and will start off with just the pump, do our testing, develop our reservoir, and can add pressure tank later. Thank you very much for your help!! I feel so much better with a plan.

 

[Valveman]

As long as the well and pump produce less than 25 GPM, the PK1A will do a better job for less than any large pressure tank.

 

[Victoria-nola]

As long as the well and pump produce less than 25 GPM, the PK1A will do a better job for less than any large pressure tank.

Thank you for the validation on that item. I have written in to our house manual. All this information I've been given here is going into our house manual.

Question about buying a pump. As I've mentioned, money is a serious issue for us, we are living on my income (I work at home in publishing) only, so that my husb has time to work on the farm. It's a real conundrum about time/money when you are trying to develop something that is your heart's desire. Plus we are both now 60yo. So, all that said, I've been looking at pumps on Amazon and there are pumps in the functional range that has been prescribed for us (i.e. submersible, 1/2 hp, 10-15 gpm) that are in the $100 range. Given that our well is very shallow so it's not a hardship to switch a pump, and that we won't be having short-cycling problems because we're only planning to fill a reservoir at this point (assuming we get that far once we have the water tested), is it at all possible that we could go with one like this? (I can get an additional 3-year warranty for $9):


Am I totally crazy to think this would possibly be a reasonable course of action?

 

[Valveman]

That 25 GPM series pump with a 10' static level will max out at about 51 PSI. So you would not be able to use even a 30/50 pressure switch, much less a 40/60 pressure switch, which would be better. I don't know how good these pumps are, but the lowest price I could find on a 10 GPM series in 1/2HP was a Red lion at this link.
http://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/Red-Lion-RL12G05-2W1V-Water-Pump/p7495.html

If the well will make 10 GPM you do not need a reservoir tank, just a PK1A to keep the pump from cycling. If the well will not make 10 GPM, then you will need the smallest pump you can find and a Cycle Sensor to keep it from running dry.

And if you do use a reservoir or cistern storage tank, you will need an additional pump with a PK1A, because water will not just jump out of a storage tank. Otherwise a storage tank needs to be 23' above ground just to get 10 PSI pressure, which still isn't enough to do anything with.

 

[Victoria-nola]

That 25 GPM series pump with a 10' static level will max out at about 51 PSI. So you would not be able to use even a 30/50 pressure switch, much less a 40/60 pressure switch, which would be better. I don't know how good these pumps are, but the lowest price I could find on a 10 GPM series in 1/2HP was a Red lion at this link.
http://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/Red-Lion-RL12G05-2W1V-Water-Pump/p7495.html

If the well will make 10 GPM you do not need a reservoir tank, just a PK1A to keep the pump from cycling. If the well will not make 10 GPM, then you will need the smallest pump you can find and a Cycle Sensor to keep it from running dry.

And if you do use a reservoir or cistern storage tank, you will need an additional pump with a PK1A, because water will not just jump out of a storage tank. Otherwise a storage tank needs to be 23' above ground just to get 10 PSI pressure, which still isn't enough to do anything with.

hrmm ok. I realize that we're in this catch-22 where we need a pump in order to determine what size pump we need. I'm now waiting a callback from a local well service company (in business 5 generations, they say), and will see if we can get a consultation from them, maybe have them determine the flow rate so that we're not making random stabs at what the system should look like. The well and reservoir is uphill from the garden and field, but not 23 topo feet, and yes 10 psi would not get us very far anyway. Ok, fair enough, I'll stop trying to get away with the cheapest possible thing.

Is there another idea about how to get a flow rate determined? Other than buying a pump or having someone come in with a pump?

Thank you! Thanks to everyone who has responded, I am very grateful, seriously.

 

[Reach4]

hrmm ok. I realize that we're in this catch-22 where we need a pump in order to determine what size pump we need.

How would you need a pump to determine what you need for a pump? I could see you needing a pump to see if there is any danger of pumping your well dry.

You want water to do something. If that is to irrigate, the pieces specify how much water they need at how many PSI. You pick a pump that can do that. And 1/2 HP is the sweet spot for your high water where you are concerned with pumping the well dry.

1/2 HP 25 GPM cannot develop much pressure. 1/2 HP 1o GPM can generate considerable pressure to climb a hill and operate an impact sprinkler or two. If doing drip irrigation, less pressure is needed. So you could probably opt for 1/2 HP 15 GPM. A 1/2 HP 25 GPM should be cheaper than a 1/2 HP 10 GPM. It has fewer stages.

There are curves and tables that tell you what pumps can do.

 

[Valveman]

You can either pay someone to install a test pump and see how much the well will make, or buy a pump and test it yourself. My guess is you can buy all the equipment for less than a good well test will cost. Test the well for a few days in the middle of the summer to determine how many gallons per minute it will make on a continuous basis. Then make sure you do not open more outlets than the well can maintain, and the CSV will adjust the output of the pump to match.

I talked to a guy who did this recently. He bought a 25 GPM pump and a PK1A. After a couple days of testing he determined the well will only make
11 GPM. So he sat up his irrigation zones to use less than 11 GPM. I think he ended up with several 8-10 GPM zones and a 4 GPM zone. The CSV1A in the PK1A adjust the pump and makes it into a 10 GPM pump when using a 10 GPM zone, and a 4 GPM pump on a 4 GPM zone.

He would not have known his well couldn't produce 25 GPM had he not used a 25 GPM pump to test with. But after the test the CSV1A just makes the 25 GPM pump work like a 10 or 4 GPM pump as needed. The pump is a little overkill, but it was the least expensive way to get a good test and the equipment needed.

 

[Reach4]

He would not have known his well couldn't produce 25 GPM had he not used a 25 GPM pump to test with.

Knowing what the well can do seems different from knowing what your water needs are. But I see your point. The needs can expand to fit the capacity.

Some might want to see how much money they can access to determine their transportation "needs".

 

[Victoria-nola]

Hey guys, I so appreciate your patience! Thank you. I did figure that paying for a well test would be costly which was why we wanted to DIY, but then I was worried we would spend money on a pump that would turn out not to work. Better to spend moneys on a system if we can choose wisely. And yes, my expectation is that the irrigation zones would correlate to our available well output.

Ok, the reason I said we need a pump to know what pump we need is that it was seeming like unless we know what the flow rate is, we can't be sure what pump to get. And the only way to know the flow rate is put a pump in there and do the test. But now Valveman is saying that we could buy the system and adjust outputs accordingly.

I'm confused about the GPM but it sounds like as long as we get the PK1A setup, it would regulate the pump for our output (unclear how), whatever that turns out to be, if the assumption is that it's more like 10-15 than 25. Certainly, if we have a pressurized tank it would simplify our situation enormously, there is no doubt about that. I was looking for least cost but most likely we'd have to put in another pump to get the reservoir to pump anyway, and then that entails power source and hookups and etc. Not to mention the mass of barrels we were contemplating having to site and maintain. (The drip irrigation form we are going to use is 1/2" poly pipe with in-line emitters, which can run at 10-50psi, but we would have 1000 feet of the pipe going, which would really be a lot of futzing with barrel filling and moving around water.)

Ok so that said, is the Red Lion pump the pump that would be recommended for use with the PD1A unit? fyi: http://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/Red-Lion-RL12G05-2W1V-Water-Pump/p7495.html

Is there anything else I should know?

 

[Valveman]

That Red lion is the least expensive in the size you need. It is not one of the best, but it will be fine. It is a 12 GPM series pump that will produce as much as 18 GPM to test the well. The CSV1A will turn it into a variable flow pump that will put out from 1 to 12 GPM, matching whatever you are using. So if you are using 2 GPM on a drip system, the CSV turns the pump into a 2 GPM pump for you. But if you need 12 GPM, the CSV will turn the pump into a 12 GPM pump. The PK1A kit includes the CSV1A valve to do that for you, and it also has a pressure tank and pressure switch to make it all work automatic for you. Just open a faucet, the pump comes on, and the CSV regulates the flow to match the faucet.

 

[Victoria-nola]

This really look like an awesome setup (I did look at that animation but wasn't completely sure what I was seeing). Based on a lot of complaints people make in comments on various websites, this looks to solve a lot of problems. I really like the matching concept, that seems so smart. Ok. good.

 

[Valveman]

(I did look at that animation but wasn't completely sure what I was seeing).

Yeah I have tried a hundred ways to explain it. To be such a simple valve the CSV has a complicated explanation and a thousand ways to use it. Most pump guys don't even understand how it works. But once you see it work, the pump just continues to run and the pressure just stays constant no matter how much or how little water you are using, it will make a lot more sense. This is especially true if you have been watching your old pressure tank system continually cycle the pump on/off on/off while the pressure keeps going up and down up and down, which isn't good.

 

[Reach4]

Ok so that said, is the Red Lion pump the pump that would be recommended for use with the PD1A unit? fyi: http://www.waterpumpsdirect.com/Red-Lion-RL12G05-2W1V-Water-Pump/p7495.html

Attached is a snip from http://redlionproducts.com/media/52...s-spec-sheet-14942401-thru-14942414-02-16.pdf that shows the GPM that pump can produce at various pressures, from water with its surface 20 ft down from the measuring point.

Since you plan to run that pump for long intervals, you should put a 4 inch PVC flow inducer sleeve on the pump. That runs water by the motor more effectively. It is cheap and easy.
The solvent weld D2729 sewer pipe is OD 4.215 ID 4.056; Schedule 40 is OD 4.500 ID 4.026;
You can use either. The thinner pipe would be easier to work with. If you search the forum for "flow inducer" you will find methods of making that. The place you buy the pipe can often help you cut the pipe to the length you want.