Recommendation and for Water Softener and Filter System, Arizona

[TonyG84]

I am new to my home (Chandler Arizona) and it came with a water softener system installed (1" piping), but not in working condition. My house uses municipal city water. A company came by and gave me a quote about replacing the unit, the person showed up for about 5 minutes and said the existing system had an old clack valve and that it all needs replaced. I started to do my own research and found this forum and other sites where I have been reading for weeks on water softening & filtration systems.

I have a much better understanding of water filtering and softening compared to before. Additionally, I know that I made the right call of not just hiring some company that gave me no details and just a quote to install a water softener.

Municipal Water stats as follows:

Hardness (gpg) : 14-18 (16.5 Avg)
pH : 7.6 avg
Lead (µg/L) : 0-3.0
Copper (ppm) : 0-0.25
Chlorine (ppm) : 1.04
Total Trihalomethanes (ppb) : 70
Haloacetic Acids (ppb) : 32

Alpha Emitters (pCi/L) : 2.8
Combined Radium -226 & -228 (pCi/L) : 0.8
Uranium (ug/L) : 5.6
Arsenic (ppb) : 8.5
Barium (ppm) : .0.14
Chromium (ppb) : 24
Flouride (ppm) : 1.5
Nitrate (ppm) : 6.8
Selenium (ppb) : 4.5
Sodium (ppm) : 280
Dalapon (ppb) : 1.3
Di (2-ethylhexylphthalate (ppb)) : 1.4

Germanium (ppt) : 0.34
Manganese (ppt) : 1.33
Haloacetic Acids (HAA9)(ppb) : 51.67

Vanadium (ppb) : 2.8
Chlorate (ppb) : 20.0
Molybdenum (ppb) : 1.0
Bromate (ppb) : 5

On average my family of 4 and I use 280 gallons of water a day. Some of the water does go to irrigation for our back yard. The irrigation system does not tie into the water softener system, it follows modern building standards.

I do have a car washing business at my house but I use a power washer 95% of the time. I wash about 5 cars a week. I hope in the future to triple or quadruple the number of cars i take care of, but we all know how that goes. I use CR Spotless brand care wash system to take out the minerals for the spot-free rinse. The resin to recharge the CR spotless is expensive, if i could reduce the amount i need to charge the resin it would be great.

My house has good water pressure I would like to not sacrifice my good water pressure as much as possible.

I am very open to good quality suggestions, I dont claim to know alot, at this point I am still trying to sort it all out.

Where I am at for my future system:

Water Softener:

- fleck valve to match my 1" piping 5810 SXT or 2510 SXT. I am having trouble finding alot differences between these two valve or am I missing something?
- 48K -53K grain resin tank. Or should I go 70K ish tank because of usage and recharge times.
-10% resin because of what is in my water.

Whole house pre-filter -10" culligan WHD-200 - 5 micron - to filter our any sediment or organic particles.

Whole house filter:

-Fleck 2510 SXT or Fleck 5810 SXT valve
-Catalytic carbon filtering
-1.5 cu/ft - 10"x 54"

RO System for drinking water system on refrigerator. I have a system that was in the house when i bought it but all the filters need changed. System was $400 brand new.


I will be doing this install myself. I am going to keep the 1" piping throughout the system.


Thanks for the help it is greatly appreciated! I am also looking for a good place to buy the softener and filtration system. Local or online, it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Eric Wesson]

I set up up my RO drinking water system with an unpressurized storage tank and a delivery pump. You could easily set up a large tank, with a delivery pump, to do your spotless rinsing. I did it the hard way with a reel and 3/8" ID vinyl tubing, using pressure washer quick connects; a dedicated system could just use a garden hose.

Hook up your RO system to the soft water, in case it's not already. RO membranes like rejecting salt.

About your softener: You'd be amazed how much softener you don't need. How many gpm do you realistically want to be able to run? Each fixture is 2 gpm; if you add up all the fixtures, you'll have a whopping gpm need, but realistically: Do you need to size your system for every tap to be open at once? I had a 1" Fleck and downsized to 3/4" and never noticed the change. Family of four, by the way.

Think about your system sizing in terms of cubic feet of resin, not grains. The grains per cubic foot depends on how much salt you use per cubic foot. Most people use way more salt than is necessary, especially if the system was set up by the guy who sells you salt. In my experiments, I found I could regenerate with just 3 lb / cf and still have nominally soft (1 gpg hardness) coming out after regen. I have similar input hardness to yours, by the way.

In short, don't overbuild and don't over-run your system. Salt is cheap, but it also is a pain to buy and bring home, and each bag leaves muck in the bottom of your brine tank. The less you use, the less you have to clean out from the tank later. A system that's too big will go too long between regenerations; this may not be that big a deal, but we are now a household of two and are regenerating a 1 cf system only every nine days or so. If we had a two cf system we probably would be forcing a regen before the resin was exhausted.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

I would avoid recommending going against code when it comes to plumbing. You can not reduce the pipe size before a softener so if you have a 1" pipe, your plumbing connection to the softener must remain 1" or larger. Otherwise selling the house may be hindered as a good home inspector will notice this and require this be corrected.

Overly low salt setting will provide relatively soft water, but certainly not the "silky" soft water that most people desire when they purchase a softener.

I am not quite sure why going beyond 9 days would matter. So long as you sanitize your system annually, every thirty days is fine and highly efficient. Consider nearly every portable exchange tank company uses a 28 day schedule for exchanges, and the fact that only since the advent of electronic controls have metered systems had the ability to incorporate a programmable day over-ride... Saving 1/3 of a bag of salt a year is admirable and better for the environment but at the cost of having lower quality water... no thanks. Their are links to some great articles in this forum that explain "how soft is soft" and the difference between ultra high efficiency settings vs lower efficiency settings. You also have to weigh the water waste compared to the salt efficiency.

Now to the OP questions:

Where I am at for my future system:

Water Softener:

- fleck valve to match my 1" piping 5810 SXT or 2510 SXT. I am having trouble finding alot differences between these two valve or am I missing something? The 5810 is a decades newer design. Both are exceptional. The 5810SXT will provide higher flow rates and is a full port 1" valve design. it is also far easier to maintain due to the seal/spacer pack rather than individual pieces. Here is a video tutorial that shows how simple the rebuild is. That being said, the rebuild is typically only required every 5-20 years.

- 48K -53K grain resin tank. Or should I go 70K ish tank because of usage and recharge times. Design it up to 20-30 days between regenerations if the budget allows. Your system will last far longer if it is sized appropriately rather than minimally. important note: a system that is rated at 32,000 grains will likely be programmed at a modest 24,000 grains for a good balance ofefficiency and quality
-10% resin because of what is in my water. Agreed

Whole house pre-filter -10" culligan WHD-200 - 5 micron - to filter our any sediment or organic particles. Don't bother, not needed

Whole house filter:

-Fleck 2510 SXT or Fleck 5810 SXT valve
-Catalytic carbon filtering be sure to match the valve, do not mix with the resin. get a backwashing version
-1.5 cu/ft - 10"x 54"

RO System for drinking water system on refrigerator. I have a system that was in the house when i bought it but all the filters need changed. System was $400 brand new. Depending on how old it is, replace it. Do not buy a cheap big box store or online version, most of these are built by the lowest bidder.

 

[Eric Wesson]

Home inspectors don't have the power to require anything. Only if it's a state law can they advise that the board of realty won't process the transaction.

A code inspector might flag it (in the context of inspecting what?), but it depends on your jurisdiction.

I always heard softeners are supposed to be cycled at minimum intervals. Thought that had to do with accumulation on the resin.

 

[ditttohead]

So a house can be sold with wood rot? A house can be sold with an unusable and unsafe water supply? Check with your local governing boards, many have very strict rules for selling a house. If a home inspector finds certain "deficiencies" in a house they will inform the governing boards, real estate agents etc. that the house has certain problems that may require remediation prior to the house being legally sold. Recommending that people further exacerbate the code violations is usually ill advised.
What you heard or read online and what true qualified experts know to be true are often times very different.

 

[Eric Wesson]

The inspector can't do anything besides reporting his findings to the realtors. If you think a house will not be transacted because 1" plumbing is reduced to 3/4" for a softener ... Quit making stuff up and scaring people.

Just unhook the stupid softener and say it doesn't convey with the house. Done.

Buyer: "The inspector noted that the plumbing goes to 3/4" at the softener. It should remain 1". Will you change it?"

Seller: "No."

Whatever. If OP wants to put in a 1" softener, that's his business. Making him think he has to, that's fear-mongering.

 

[ditttohead]

Telling someone to go against UPC is not recommended especially considering the potential liability. I have worked with code writers for years and as we say, most codes are written in blood. Again, this reasons behind this particular code is an hour long training session, not something that is easily written out in a DIY forum. I assume you have held a c-36 or C-55 in California or are a water specialist since you are recommending that it is ok to reduce pipe size as you feel fit? Would you also recommend that an air gap is a waste and just causes excessive noise? There are several highly qualified people on this forum that carefully consider the advice they give, you are the first that I can recall that has recommended it is ok to reduce pipe size even again UPC code 610.2 which states fairly plainly that the inlet and outlet pipe diameter of the softener must match the supply piping where the softener will be installed... not really complex. The simplest explanation for this particular rule is that the inspectors can not be expected to understand the tens of thousands of codes and the reasons behind all of them, they simply know that the pipe must not be reduced. They also understand that fixture counts directly correlate to the determination of the pipe size that is used. Air gaps must always be used when a connection between a potable and non potable connection is made etc... Smaller pipe sizes can lead to a multitude of problems including noisy pipes, excessive wear, reduced pressures and much more. This is not a scare tactic. Actually it is simply common sense. Since the 1" plastic connector on a 5600 costs the same as the 3/4" one, and it is actually cheaper on the 5810, I am not sure why you would say something that unsubstantiated.

 

[Eric Wesson]

UPC (in California at least) is 3/4" for the house, with 1" suggested. That's "should" not "shall". UPC only mandates supply to individual fixtures.

Furthermore, anyone can call up their county and ask them if there are restrictions on title transfer. Your board of realty may have their own pickiness. Anyone can transfer title on a house; go hire a real estate attorney. Hell, I've written my own title transfers.

The loan is another matter. However, banks are usually only worried about conditions that are destroying the structure, such as mold or insects. Go find a bank that cares whether there is a downsized softener attached.

>What you heard or read online and what true qualified experts know to be true are often times very different.

lol you're the one giving people stuff to read online that is obviously outside your expertise. I mean, I know you like being a BSD in this little backwater, but ... get a life.

 

[ditttohead]

So your saying that a house with 8 bathrooms can have a 3/4" main line, but should have a 1" according to Uniform Plumbing Code?

I enjoy assisting people who have DIY questions and I attempt to steer people in the correct direction. I avoid giving advice that falls outside of industry standards and practices and especially outside of plumbing code. I am not sure where your hostility is coming from, I have simply tried to give you good and helpful advice.

Here is a simple chart that correlates fixture count, pipe length, pressure calculations. This is a simple way to calculate the minimum pipe sizes but there are other ways. This chart is a great cheat sheet and basically every plumber uses this or a very similar chart or they do the calculations themselves when sizing the main line for the house. Obviously other things can come into consideration including material used (PEX, Poly, copper, Etc.) and even temperatures can be used to "adjust" these number slightly. In general, going outside of these numbers is simply not recommended. As you can see by the chart, their is no accommodation for 1/2" pipe, that was removed many years ago. Up to 2-1/2" pipe is calculated in this chart, for larger applications we simply do a fixture count and do the math ourselves.

 

[TonyG84]

I would like to thank everyone for their feedback. It wasn't my intent to start a flame war, but it did give rise to some good points and more knowledge in the end.

I do have another question.

The local dealer that I am talking to mentioned to me that I should add KDF - 55 cubes to my whole home filtering system because it would greatly increase my lifespan of my Catalytic Carbon by 30% and it filters out organics and fungus's. I am unsure about this because I haven't seen big of a life jump claim before. Usually I see ambiguous statements like "increase carbon life" or "extend the time between filter media changes" when using KDF-55 cubes. Is this legit or should I pass? its $150 premium for the cubes. Also I imagine the chlorine already in the water would kill the fugues`s, or am I missing something?

 

[ditttohead]

I am not opposed to KDF Cubes. They are better than straight KDF just dumped into the carbon. If the KDF cubes stayed on top of the carbon then they would do a good job of possibly extending the life of the carbon. The problem is that the cubes tend to comingle. We are still testing ways to prevent this.

Chlorine in the water will not make it through a carbon bed. This is one reason sanitizing carbon is so difficult. Heat sanitization is the most common method.

Worth $150... maybe. I have them in my own water system, I will continue to test them and I have a new kdf cube project on the test bench that should be finished in three weeks. If all is successful, I will post my results here.