Reason for using primer on PVC joints

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by kskier, Dec 8, 2007.

  1. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    I worked for an entire shop that didn't use it, on new residential construction of course.
    We did head tests and never a problem that wasn't due to a bad cut, failure to spin the wet hub 1/4, or jocked fitting, but then, maybe priming might have been enough to hold on those.
    I'd have to wager using primer increases the amount of pressure a seal can handle, I'd also say it's a very bad practice to do regularly.
    Unless you're the lowest bid on new construction.
     
  2. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

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    When my wife runs out of nail polish remover, she digs into my primer stash.
     
  3. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

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    My guess is that the cleaner/primer will leave the softer and better-prepared spot, but I will try your experiment and see!
     
  4. construct30

    construct30 New Member

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    NorthWest PA
    Do you guys not have to pass inspections and use a pressure test on your DWV systems?

    If you do not use primer and glue the pvc will not hold water or air under pressure. If it does not hold water or air under pressure then it will not be safe.

    All plumbing codes everywhere require you to follow the manufacturer's instructions or the code which ever is more strict. I have found no pvc or solvent weld manufacturer that says not to use primer and glue.

    What is the big deal? The pipe goes together easier and the solvent weld is correct. In most brands of solvent weld the cleaner and primer are the same thing, it does both jobs, it is a two step process not three.

    The IPC does not allow the use of "glue" on plastic pipe, that is why you can not use multi purpose glue on a mixed abs-pvc joint. You have to use a mechanical seal or gasket. It is a solvent weld that is a two step process if you don't use the primer and glue then don't bother talking about code aproved ways to install vents and such, don't bother, if you're not going to put the pipes together correctly the rest doesn't matter.

    You really should use a gasket joint for drains outside under ground for long main runs, it is required by many sewer departments, but that is another debate.
     
  5. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

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    primer in the late 60s huh??

    Rugged ...no a dog did not come in and type what I stated...

    but I could have been high on purple primer.........


    When pvc sch 40 came out back in the mid 60s we
    literally did thousands of homes without a dap of primer on new construction ...

    we Used to use yellow Genova pipe and it still is
    working great today...you cant get it apart.....

    The primer never was an issue untill probably
    the late 80s....when someone got a hair up their butts about it...

    YES it should be used on CPVC and any type of system under pressure....

    but it is totally irrevellant on the sch 40 drain lines
    but it should be sued to appease the inspectors on new construction
    which I have done before.........

    we do keep CLEAR primer in our trucks......

    but we only do service work and rarely need to
    appease an inspector anymore with primer on new construction
    and it really is not necessary on minor service calls.........


    Now Actually ...how does everyone glue a fitting together anyway???


    .....If you read the instructions on how to glue sch
    40 pvc together it also states you are to put the glue
    on the MALE end of the fitting only and you are not supposed
    to put any glue inside the female socket.....

    This is how it is or was supposed to be done....

    I suppose that is still what the instructions state today......

    It did not take me long to realize its best
    to give both the male and female ends of the
    fitting a liberal amount of glue on them......
    and primer too if you so desire.....

    I dont care if some of it drips on the inside of
    the pipe ....that is a non-issue..


    that is the way I do it ...and I think its the best way......

    So how do you do it...
    do you slop it on like me

    or are you stingey with the glue???

    which way do you think is best ???



    if you can get a 3 inch shc 40 fitting
    fitting apart after 5 minutes with glue only on it ,

    I will buy you lunch at Arbys or Burger King






    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  6. Cass

    Cass Plumber

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    Years back when we didn't use primer the tests held fine.

    I did one home where the stack roof penetration was 40' higher than the lowest joint.

    We filled the system with water for the test and everything held fine and the last joint in the basement was glued 15 Min. before we filled the system.

    I am not recommending the non use of primer.

    I use it.

    When the purple primer was causing problems we would mix 1 can of purple with 1 can of regular primer and the problem went away and still had the purple staining for the inspectors to see.
     
  7. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    Here's my revelation

    Back in the day when I was green green green I ran a bunch of vents in the upper part of a building without using cleaner. Late 80's trying things out on my own, bareback.

    It was cold that day and 4 months later the customer complained of staining in the ceiling.

    What happened was a few of the joints pulled apart. Every one of those connections that didn't pull apart, I could literally break loose and you could see that the glue remained in tact to itself, not really bonding the two components together.

    That one mistake has kept me from ever going astray from following mfg. specs of the glue and cleaner scenario. I don't even mind the two step process as I don't know it in any other way.

    I even take it a step farther; if I feel the primed ends of fittings and pipe have been dry too long from priming, I'll go ahead and prime them again that way the material is at its optimum to take that glue and be softened, knowing those two pieces of plastic are a permanent 1 component. I then take cleaner and clean the outside of the hub to pipe connection to clean up the excess glue, give it a nice finished look without glue dripping down the pipe.

    So many times I've been asked to look at drain piping that wasn't cleaned of the excess glue, people thinking it's a leak from the joint. :confused:


    I've had one glue joint fail over the years, 2" union joint trap under a sink that took years to finally let go. Was running out of cleaner and didn't get a good solvent weld, water contaminated the joint instantly when the water was turned on and years later, the joint pulled apart with the visible proof that the two components never joined.

    I use the fast set/bright green cans of cleaner......the type that you have a very short time to hold the joint together. I absolutely refuse to use the brown or red canned glue; garbage in my opinion as it gives too much time for the joint to solidify. If you need that much time to decide whether or not you like the way you put that piping arrangement together to change it minutes later, you shouldn't be doing the plumbing to begin with.

    IF you can get the right leverage on a pipe or fitting or really know how to use a hammer effectively by inserting the claw into the fitting, using the end of it, you can break joints down and apart on the larger fittings but you'll hurt yourself in the process.

    I've had situations that I've measured 3 times before making up a connection and when you put it someplace you "think" will work......it doesn't. :(

    So in summary I do things that don't stray from industry standard, ever if I can help it.....along the long long trail of liability I open myself up to,

    every time I perform work duties at someone's property.

    I want to make darn sure that no one calls me back and says that a drain connection broke loose behind a wall....and it's been leaking for months. :eek:


    I entered this profession in the mid 80's so you old men talk the talk that I never walked. I was still swimming in the ocean.

    Well, I was still the eggs and bacon that didn't meet the same plate, yet.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  8. Master Plumber Mark

    Master Plumber Mark Sensitivity trainer and plumber of mens souls

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    indianapolis indiana - land of the free, home of
    Rugged ---and the glue process

    Perhaps the joints that leaked on you years ago had to do
    with how you glued the fittings together.....

    I have done new homes in a driveing downpours of rain.....
    and never had problems as long as we used normal weight
    glue on both the male and female joints....

    the more glue the better

    ocassionally soaking wet pipes will not glue as well
    as dry pvc pipe...no matter what you do...



    But you never answered the questoin about wether you
    just put glue on the male fittings or put glue on both male and female

    Rugged.....In your limited experience ..... which way is better???
    (just kidding)


    who are you referring to when you say "old men" anyway???
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  9. Bob NH

    Bob NH In the Trades

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    Oct 20, 2005
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    I do pressure piping on filter systems.

    Chamfer the pipe.

    Prime the socket; shake out excess liquid; prime/clean the pipe until the printing is gone.

    Cement in the socket; cement on the pipe; verify no holidays.

    Insert pipe and twist 1/4 turn while inserting.

    Hold until it sets enough so it won't slip out.

    Never have had a failure.

    I had one job where the owner contracted with a local "Plumber" who didn't take the trouble to get the Schedule 40 fittings; so he used DWV fittings on 1 1/2" pipe at about 75 psi. After the 3rd failure, even with 24 hour setting after assembly, he attacked it with a Sawzall and redid the job with the correct fittings.
     
  10. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    Just got back from 2 drain cleaning jobs. $$$ < Christmas CASH!


    I've only done it once so I remember the job well and yes, I put glue on both the pipe and fitting like I always do. It was also below 40 degrees so the glue was jelly as well, another no-no in working with solvent weld connections.

    It was a lesson greatly learned and even though I did it that one time, I've never deterred from the mfg. specs on how to use their product when making up a solvent weld connection since then.

    I know no other way so I can't say I've done it and could say it worked the other way. I know that FlowGuard Gold glue is one step glue, along with a few other types but like I've stated, I do not glue, don't crimp any water lines in my company; don't want the liability of things going wrong in the future.

    I prefer/recommend following the mfg. specs of any product I put my hands on for the simple reason that IF it came down to product failure and they determined I skipped a step? You know who's going to pay.

    There are products in this profession I don't particularly agree with whether it's the product itself or the steps involving its use. All I can do is "play along" to the tune of liability risk and wander aimlessly like the trained monkey that I am.


    Tuesday I'm ripping a 3" DWV system completely apart under a toilet that's a christmas tree full of fittings and the last 90 turning downward on the vertical had a bad solvent weld connection, sold the logic that if he doesn't correct that problem that the first clog will have the connection leaking......even though its not leaking currently. You can however notice the streaming of fecal fluid down the pipe from when it did though.

    Why I'm stating the above is that I've seen countless times where I've worked on piping in a plumbing system involving PVC drainage systems whereby I just put my hands on the pipe, tried cutting it or simply break it by accident, watching how easily the fitting pulled away from the pipe like it was never glued to begin with.

    I'll never know if it was relative to the lack of Acetone Acetate or not, that would be a lab testing I won't bother to pay for to find out. I guess I can't knock the issue too bad as it makes me moanay!

    A sin I'm guilty of right now is fitting up copper, heating it slightly and THEN brushing flux on the joints to suck the flux in like solder, then solder up the connections. Removing that one step greatly speeds the process of soldering and dramatically lowers contamination of the fluxing process as the burnoff proves that when I do it in this fashion. (Much cleaner residue)

    I'm going back to the rules we're governed by......only did it on two jobs recently. Shame on me.


    You gotta be older than me if you was running pipe in the 60's. I'm 38 going on 73 so treat me like I got a bedpan and loose bowels. :D
     
  11. cwhyu2

    cwhyu2 Consultant

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    Im with you Rugged.
     
  12. Rickochet

    Rickochet New Member

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    Indiana
    More info.....

    Looking at the earlier posts, it is clear that plumbers have different ideas on what works. For a little update to this discussion, what products do you recommend on the CPVC Gold? What are the step by step instructions that could help tons of others???

    Thanks,
     
  13. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Say what?
    Rugged,
    Have you ever reheated and pullled the joints apart to see much much solder ever made it inside the joint?

    I've pulled plenty of joints that looked good on the outside, that had almost no solder on the inside.
    I always flux the pipe when soldering.

    As far as CPVC goes, the best joints are still made by priming the inside of the fitting, and the outside of the pipe first,
    Then repeating the process with what ever glue you are using, inside fitting, outside of pipe,
    Assembly with a slight twist to smear the joint some.
     
  14. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Connecticut
    I had 3 decent jobs in the last few months on PVC drain pipes that were coming apart because they hadn't been primed... I'd like to thank the plumbers such as Mark and Lee that do not need to prime PVC for this income producing opporitunity!
     
  15. Wrex

    Wrex Member

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    Double Post
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2008
  16. Wrex

    Wrex Member

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    I would never assemble PVC without priming both the male end of the pipe to be joined and the female inside of the fitting. I do the same for the cement inside the fitting and the outside of the pipe.

    Never failed me yet. It doesn't take much effort to prime the pipes properly and afterward there are no what ifs.

    I can confirm after the primer evaporates that the pipe feels very different. I guess this primer is like painting primer it provides an optimal surface for the cement to adhere to.

    I must say though that primer stinks real bad (even worse then the cement) and forget it if it gets on your hands you'll be purple for a week.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2008
  17. Winslow

    Winslow Plumber

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    when you use the primer you need to let the pipe and fitting sit a moment before applying the glue. If you apply the glue immediately after the primer then the glue will not adhere to the joint correctly, it will just push out. If you let the pipe and fitting "dry" then it will be a little sticky and the glue will adhere properly. After setting the joint you need to hold it momentarily to ensure it won't slip on you.
     
  18. Dunbar Plumbing

    Dunbar Plumbing Master Plumber

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    I explained myself underneath that statement when I wrote that


    Still don't know why I did it.....but haven't done it ever since. I was having problems with soldering and if I check my records with a certain time I had to replace all soldering items (flux/brushes/wipe cloth/sandpaper/solder) due to contamination from working at a restaurant where powdered flour embedded into my product and started causing failures.


    EDIT:


    Yep, December 09 That was when I had problems. I was adjusting a work practice due to another problem I didn't realize until it was too late.
     
  19. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    primer

    I have removed both ABS and PVC joints so the difference in the joining methods does not make one more difficult than the other. Primer is a solvent. It also makes paint easier to scrape off a PVC pipe before gluing it. It changes the surface of the pipe, so if you were to use a compression coupling, applying primer to the pipe first will make it rough so the rubber sleeves will grab better.
     
  20. Rickochet

    Rickochet New Member

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    Location:
    Indiana
    Do you use the cleaner, followed by primer, then the glue? Also, what brand is best for the Gold CPVC?
     
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