P trap vs S Trap

[SewerRatz]

How high does that thing go? Right below counter height OK?

Honestly I do not know that since I never installed them. Best to follow the manufactures instructions on them. I think I heard 6" above the trap, I do not recall if that is at least or max.

 

[Rich B]

If you do things that do not meet code in your home now, and when its time to sell your home, the home inspector will catch the non-code items and write them up. When that happens you have two choices fix it then or get estimates to fix it and remove the cost to bring it to code from the cost of the home if the buyer agrees to that. Or you can do it right the first time and have no worries later. Oh one more thing sometimes you might do things that you think is good enough, but when an inspector comes in and looks at what you did he can declare your home inhabitable if what you did is seriously wrong.

With anything in life you can put a band-aid on things, take the short cut doing things half assed. Or you can do things right and be proud that you did it right.

Well Ron.....My son bought a home a few years ago....It was inpsected by a home inspector......After moving in, my son who has had allergies all his life, started to feel sick more than usual. He soon learned the lowewr level of the house had black mold in all the walls. Some sort of leak from he washer/dryer area probably got it going and over some time it grew. He called in people and got estimates....it was rediculous. He was told he would get nowhere suing the home inspector.....He did all the work himself.......and completely rennovated the lower level.....So your talk about home inpsectors and such falls on deaf ears with me and I have other stories.......I don't plan on doing any hideous plumbing like what the original plumber did when the house was built. Did they have licenses and inspectors and codes in 1955 in the NY area? I have to wonder when I look around in the house I live in.....

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Cacher_Chick]

When S-traps were installed in older houses here, the pipe size was increased on the horizontal run back to the stack. If the pipe size was increased, it would then supposedly never be more that 1/2 full, allowing the upper half of the pipe to act as the vent.

This thinking still applies here, as a vent is not required by our code if the pipe size and length back to the main stack are within what the code allows.

 

[BimmerRacer]

Well Ron.....My son bought a home a few years ago....It was inpsected by a home inspector......After moving in, my son who has had allergies all his life, started to feel sick more than usual. He soon learned the lowewr level of the house had black mold in all the walls. Some sort of leak from he washer/dryer area probably got it going and over some time it grew. He called in people and got estimates....it was rediculous. He was told he would get nowhere suing the home inspector.....He did all the work himself.......and completely rennovated the lower level.....So your talk about home inpsectors and such falls on deaf ears with me and I have other stories.......I don't plan on doing any hideous plumbing like what the original plumber did when the house was built. Did they have licenses and inspectors and codes in 1955 in the NY area? I have to wonder when I look around in the house I live in.....

The inspectors don't open up walls to check insulation, electrical connections, plumbing, etc. They will look in the breaker panels and any plumbing/electrical they can see (such as under sinks and in the unfinished basements). Believe me, no inspector should have passed my old plumbing and painters tape on electrical connections if they could see it.

When S-traps were installed in older houses here, the pipe size was increased on the horizontal run back to the stack. If the pipe size was increased, it would then supposedly never be more that 1/2 full, allowing the upper half of the pipe to act as the vent.

This thinking still applies here, as a vent is not required by our code if the pipe size and length back to the main stack are within what the code allows.

No wet venting here I don't think and I don't think wet vent applies to S-trap in general.

 

[Redwood]

Bimmeracer ? Well that must mean BMW racer......I DragRace myself....A rear engined dragster..... high 7 second 170 mph

Real race cars have doors...
Is that your car in the avitar now?

Used to run low 10's in a 69 442 myself way back when...

 

[Rich B]

As to the height of the AAV.....I installed one under my double kitchen sink as high up as I could get it and still be able to remove it if necessary. I am faced with the same problem in the basement on the clothes washer drains. No vent and 2 washers both plumbed into 1 single 1-1/2 drain that is a straight tee fitting into a 4" C.I. on the horizontal that is right at the exit of the house. It does have a 4" main stack and that was used as a wet vent for everything it appears. No tub vent, no lav vent and no vents for kitchen or washer drains.....Nice work and it all has worked with ZERO problems for years and years with 2 families living in the place!!!! I think what the guys said when they built it was...." Codes? We don't need no stinkin codes"......LOL


The Avatar is my car now and it runs 7.70's at 170 509 cubes on alcohol with a carb,......I can build stuff like that with one eye closed. I've drag raced since the 60's and Have won on the "Big Stage"....I can work on my house!.....I was an engine builder for many years...electrician for a few.....general mechanic forever......do electrical-mechanical repairs and service ....I'm 61........I was born at night ...but not LAST night....LOL

 

[BimmerRacer]

Real race cars have doors...
Is that your car in the avitar now?

Used to run low 10's in a 69 442 myself way back when...

Real race cars turn left and right *flame suit on*

 

[SewerRatz]

Well Ron.....My son bought a home a few years ago....It was inpsected by a home inspector......After moving in, my son who has had allergies all his life, started to feel sick more than usual. He soon learned the lowewr level of the house had black mold in all the walls. Some sort of leak from he washer/dryer area probably got it going and over some time it grew. He called in people and got estimates....it was rediculous. He was told he would get nowhere suing the home inspector.....He did all the work himself.......and completely rennovated the lower level.....So your talk about home inpsectors and such falls on deaf ears with me and I have other stories.......I don't plan on doing any hideous plumbing like what the original plumber did when the house was built. Did they have licenses and inspectors and codes in 1955 in the NY area? I have to wonder when I look around in the house I live in.....

I am sorry your son had an incompetent inspector. I have seen home inspectors crawl in shallow crawl spaces, go up in short hot musty attics and do such a comprehensive write up on the home, the seller wanted to kick his you know what in. Do not get me wrong there are lots of bad home inspectors, and even the best may not have found the black mold you talked about. But what I am talking about is the use of an AAV which any decent inspector will find during an inspection.

I posted about a home owner that repiped his whole home in CPVC, and when he went to sell his home, he was shocked that his town does not allow CPVC piping. Then he was shocked with the fines the city hit him with and the cost of having to hire a plumber to re-plumb the home to meet the local codes.

 

[BimmerRacer]

Code Check book says

Individual Fixt AAV min 4" above fixt drain
Stack type AAV min 6" above FLR of highest fixt
AAV terminating in attic 6" above insulation
Must be accessible
Space containing AAV must be ventilated

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I have a red wagon

that goes down hills,


fast.

 

[3m]

The area I live in has come up with some new fines for doing work without a license and or permit. On residential jobs the first offense cost 500.00 dollars, second cost 1000.00 and the third cost 1500.00.On commercial work the first offense cost 2500.00, second cost 5000.00, and the third is 7000.00 they are checking jobs looking for unlicensed work

 

[Kingsotall]

With those kinds of fines it pays to spend the dough to get licensed and bonded/insured.

 

[Redwood]

Sounds like a law with teeth in it...
Sharp ones!

 

[gregnoob]

Rich you are absolutely correct!
In a perfect world there would be one code and AAV's would be illegal everywhere.
The big box store would be raided and all it's illegal mechandise would be confiscated.

Sums it up for me! I was debating an AAV rather than the twisty vent I was going to have to run around a pass-through window. Reading this thread makes it all so clear. NO AAV!

 

[TedL]

At the risk of being branded a heretic, I have to ask the following:
In a situation where a kitchen sink "S" trap is grandfathered, and there's no dishwasher, how real is the danger of an "S" trap actually siphoning so that sewer gas will be admitted? Other than my dishwasher, and the occasional pot of water from cooking corn on the cob, I don't think the use in our house develops the momentum that results in a broken seal. (And the corn pot then gets hand washed, which I believe would restore any broken seal.)

They were obviously allowed for a number of years. Were those kitchens frequently filled with sewer gas? If so, why did it take decades for them to be outlawed?

Just asking, not advocating.

 

[SewerRatz]

same reason it took decades for them to realize a steel dash board in a car is dangerous, lap belts where replaced with shoulder harness belts. Takes time to change laws.

 

[TedL]

same reason it took decades for them to realize a steel dash board in a car is dangerous, lap belts where replaced with shoulder harness belts. Takes time to change laws.

The comparison doesn't really work for me, because I'm sure GM, Ford & Chrysler were spending lots on lobbyists to block progress of auto safety legislation (which actually began with mandating seat belts in the early 60's---forget the change to three point belts).

Who had a vested interest in S-traps that was willing to spend millions to cloud the picture or pay off the politicians at the many varied levels at which plumbing codes are established? Existing building owners were almost uniformly grandfathered. For plumbers, it could only mean more work (a good thing when you're paid by the hour.) Manufacturers and distributors who'd get stuck with unsalable product? A one year delay in implementation would have addressed that.

 

[NHmaster]

I'll catch a mountain of crap for this, but if it's existing and working, repair it.

 

[rwcarpenter]

In a renovation/remodel, aren't you required to follow current codes?

 

[Terry]

how real is the danger of an "S" trap actually siphoning so that sewer gas will be admitted?

Like NH master says,
If you have it, you can leave it.

If it's new, then it should be done right.

There are limits on how long tail pieces can be, the longer they are, the more likely that water dropping down will siphon a trap.

I did one deep tub install where the horizontal trap arm was quite a bit lower in the crawl space.
It wasn't my original plumbing, just going in to hook up a tub.
When I drained the tub, I noticed that the trap was siphoning.
Uh, not good.

The distance does make a difference.

And that's why we now longer put p-traps under the floor.
We know better now.

You don't really have to think these things out that much,
just do it and you'll know why the codes changed.

I've had a few houses where I've done some funky stuff, knowing it was going to be torn down anyway, just to try some ideas out.
I'm a curious guy.