Opinion on expansion tank installation. Picture included.

[Master Plumber Mark]

boy its great to see runs with bison around this thread.....

now we are gonna take this thread to a whole new level..

put on your hip boots.....

 

[Redwoodvotesoften1]

Humm, let's see, a compressor with a steel, unlined vessel verses a glass-lined vessel...which one is more likely to crack with pressure swings? I think the glass lining - and this doesn't mean an immediate leak or that it blows up...a micro-crack is all it takes to start to degrade the steel holding it all together. Once that happens, it rarely catastrophically fails, it eventually starts to leak, generally slowly. The expansion/contraction just speeds it up. Once that is compromised and the sacraficial anode is depeleted (plus, it can only do so much - expose more steel to the water, and it gets overwhelmed)...I'm pretty sure the glass-lined WH is going to die long before an air compressor (lousy example, and shows of ignorance).

Things just work better, longer under constant conditions. No emergency relief valve is going to do that. An expansion tank is designed specifically for that purpose.

Codes are written as a minimum safety standard to prevent problems. If you have a closed system, code requires an expansion tank (and some places are mandating them regardless for that 'what if' situation you may not recognize or understand.

ANYTHING mechanical should have regular maintenance, as eventually, it will fail. If you are unable to discover this yourself, there are professionals you should call to check on things for you.

Many of the features are mandated because people just don't have any common sense, or don't have the time or understanding of the implications of their actions. We aren't going to go back, and as people get more specialized in one certain area, what was considered common knowledge of things mechanical goes away...the age of the generalist is past. There's too much going on, and no single person can have an adequate handle on it all.

One sign of true intelligence is recognizing when you don't know to full answer to the question.

Hot Dang Jim, U sayed a mouthful rite thar. Ann it makes komplete cents ta me.
But don git yer hopes up dat deez guys will komprehend a lick of it.
Ya gotta realeyes dat we iz dealin with General Engineerin Contracters here an dats a whole lot differin from dem engineers you worked with in the Defense Industry. Dem guys you worked with are like rocket scientists comparing ta dez guys.

Jess so ya knowz what a General Engineerin Contractor duz I put a pitcher of one workin below.



Jess so ya knowz watcher workin with.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Tom Sawyer]

All this fuss over a 40 dollar tank.

All you non plumbers, yes those of you without a licence but with an opinion. Nobody cares what you think. Expansion tanks are code. Done there

All you licensed plumbers. Why do you give a rat's what non licensed and ignorant others say, we know it's the code, we know the reason why it is code. Done there

Homeowners reading this nonsense. Expansion tanks are code in most areas now. As a diy'er you probably won't get a permit one way or another so the choice is yours. You can do it right or you can save a buck and leave it out.

 

[Runs with Bison]

You only learn so much out of books, the rest is experience, and doing it. This is why so many things fail "on the books" until, you get a "lowly" tradesman to do your work for you. If it weren't for those people who get down & dirty, instead of getting manicures, NOTHING would ever work! You want to know how something works and WHY it works? Ask the person who does it everyday for a living. He or she, will always have more of a working understanding of it than an engineer. And, in far less words, too, and to-the-point. They don't need to pontificate.

Some of us have spent a lot of time in the field with our mechanics and operators bridging the gap between theory and practice and figuring out why something isn't working or how to make it work better. Some of us worked our way to and through college including years of farmwork. Manicures for engineers? What world do you live in?

But hey, go on pontificating with Deadwood, the chief pontificator.

Funny thing is, I see thermal expansion tanks as an important safety feature, but not due to the number of pressure cycles. I do tire of Deadwood making crap up as he goes along, and when he made the attack on me again it was gloves off. Blowhards like him like to spend their time insulting those with more education and broader experience, while he dubiously applies bits of the principles taught...then he adds really lousy troubleshooting techniques. No wonder he often comes up with the wrong answer for the "why" part of tough questions.

 

[Terry]

If the so called engineers that are complaining so badly ever pulled a permit and did work that was inspected, then you wouldn't have had this thread. They would be arguing with the inspecter until they were blue in the face and it wouldn't change a thing.
Not a blessed thing.

Dooh!

I would like to think that a "real engineer" wouldn't be so thick headed as to argue with a plumbing inspector enforcing a commonly agreed upon code.

 

[Cookie]

Some of us have spent a lot of time in the field with our mechanics and operators bridging the gap between theory and practice and figuring out why something isn't working or how to make it work better. Some of us worked our way to and through college including years of farmwork. Manicures for engineers? What world do you live in?



But hey, go on pontificating with Deadwood, the chief pontificator.

Funny thing is, I see thermal expansion tanks as an important safety feature, but not due to the number of pressure cycles. I do tire of Deadwood making crap up as he goes along, and when he made the attack on me again it was gloves off. Blowhards like him like to spend their time insulting those with more education and broader experience, while he dubiously applies bits of the principles taught...then he adds really lousy troubleshooting techniques. No wonder he often comes up with the wrong answer for the "why" part of tough questions.

Oh, you are too funny. I was married to an electrical engineer for 25 years who laughed at most other engineers because of their know-it-all attitudes. Like he said, " they know everything except to apologize when wrong." And, some got manicures, ha ha ha ha. They were very pretty.

You think, only men are engineers? What world do you live in?

 

[Redwood]

Some of us have spent a lot of time in the field with our mechanics and operators bridging the gap between theory and practice and figuring out why something isn't working or how to make it work better. Some of us worked our way to and through college including years of farmwork. Manicures for engineers? What world do you live in?

But hey, go on pontificating with Deadwood, the chief pontificator.

Funny thing is, I see thermal expansion tanks as an important safety feature, but not due to the number of pressure cycles. I do tire of Deadwood making crap up as he goes along, and when he made the attack on me again it was gloves off. Blowhards like him like to spend their time insulting those with more education and broader experience, while he dubiously applies bits of the principles taught...then he adds really lousy troubleshooting techniques. No wonder he often comes up with the wrong answer for the "why" part of tough questions.

Yawn....
I just love how you know more and more about less and less, so that now you know nothing at all...

Its really simple, let me try to expand your knowledge beyond its limited scope....
You have to realize that us plumbers have a thing called the plumbing code....
There are many different codes in different states, countries, and provinces but there is much that is common in them.
These codes are the law, and we have to abide by these laws when we plumb.
DIYers also are required to abide by these laws although checking and enforcement is lacking.
In order for anything to be included or, removed from the plumbing code there is a process that is gone through.
This process involves submitting the proposed change, passing the proposal to members of the board for a review and discussion period, modifications more review and discussion, then finally a vote to include or, reject the proposal.
The code is actually a minimum standard that our work is required to meet.

If you feel that you have a valid point that should change the plumbing code I invite you to submit your proposal...
However, make sure that you have your facts straight and make a convincing argument in your proposal...
Let me caution you I haven't seen anything out of either of you that would do anything more than generate a hearty laugh at your stupidity.

That said, the code which we plumbers have to follow makes it obligatory to do the following:

• The maximum pressure allowed in a home is 80 psi which means that above that we install a means of controlling the pressure. The PRVs that we install may create a closed system, or they may have an internal by-pass. The internal bypass may be defeated in its operation by high water supply pressures from the water purveyor. The water purveyor may at any time increase their supply pressure to meet the demands of the system and the customers are on their own to deal with any problems. We as plumbers when we work on these systems install them in a manner where they function properly and will continue to do so despite changes which are beyond our control.
  
• Some water purveyors may also install a check valve on their meters which they do in an effort to safeguard the quality of the water supply from sources of contamination. These check valves will create a closed system. In some areas even though check valves are not installed they are being planned in the future. In many cases the codes in these areas are requiring a means of controlling thermal expansion in a closed system even though the need is not presently there. They are phasing in the use of expansion tanks so that when the meters are checked there will be a minimal amount of their customers affected.
  
• When water is heated water expands, Hopefully we all agree on that! In a closed system a means of controlling thermal expansion must be provided. Some codes spell it out as a thermal expansion tank, others leave it as a means to control thermal expansion. Whatever is used every code I know of states that the means of control cannot be isolated from the water heater, this means that it must be installed between the valve shutting off the water to the water heater and the water heater itself. This excludes many of the engineer suggested products such as the governor 80 ballcock and relief valves on hosebibbs.

Now lets get down to brass tacks and discuss expansion tanks vs. relief valves...

• The main drawback of the relief valve is that it is plumbed to a drain and when it is relieving pressure or, failed huge amounts of water can run directly to a drain without any indication to the customer unless they notice the meter is spinning away like a top or, they receive a huge wate bill. The installation cost is very close to the cost of an expansion tank so there is no economic advantage. Pressure control is limited to 80 psi to the set point of the relief valve.
  
• The thermal expansion tank on the other hand properly pre-charged and installed has a comparable service life to the relief valve, and maintains a higher degree of pressure control with almost no indictable difference in pressure. There is no discharge of water from the system unless failure has occurred in which case a small discharge from the T&P Valve will be visible. In many areas this was considered as the reasoning for using the expansion tank especially in areas where water conservation is badly needed. Overall it seems like a no-brainer as well.

The subject of T&P Valves is not open for discussion that is a code requirement which if you desire changes to be made you must submit your proposal.

Have a nice day and keep shoveling the muck...
The end of that ditch is out there.

I dropped out of engineering school to take a plumbing job when I saw a friends paycheck who was an engineer....

 

[Cookie]

I kind of like that, Chief Pontificator, I think you should go with it! Sounds very important...
it's cool... I wish I could edit your profile, LOL...

 

[Cwhyu2]

Redwood, just spent the last 1/2 hr out lining what was in your last post then hit the wrong key and it went away.
Thank You for not having me to type that all back in.
Clay

 

[Cookie]

Yawn....
I just love how you know more and more about less and less, so that now you know nothing at all...

Its really simple, let me try to expand your knowledge beyond its limited scope....
You have to realize that us plumbers have a thing called the plumbing code....
There are many different codes in different states, countries, and provinces but there is much that is common in them.
These codes are the law, and we have to abide by these laws when we plumb.
DIYers also are required to abide by these laws although checking and enforcement is lacking.
In order for anything to be included or, removed from the plumbing code there is a process that is gone through.
This process involves submitting the proposed change, passing the proposal to members of the board for a review and discussion period, modifications more review and discussion, then finally a vote to include or, reject the proposal.
The code is actually a minimum standard that our work is required to meet.

If you feel that you have a valid point that should change the plumbing code I invite you to submit your proposal...
However, make sure that you have your facts straight and make a convincing argument in your proposal...
Let me caution you I haven't seen anything out of either of you that would do anything more than generate a hearty laugh at your stupidity.

That said, the code which we plumbers makes it obligatory to do the following:

• The maximum pressure allowed in a home is 80 psi which means that above that we install a means of controlling the pressure. The PRVs that we install may create a closed system, or they may have an internal by-pass. The internal bypass mat be defeated in its operation by high water supply pressures from the water purveyor. The water purveyor may at any time increase their supply pressure to meet the demands of the system and the customers are on their own to deal with any problems. We as plumbers when we work on these systems install them in a manner where they function properly and will continue to do so despite changes which are beyond our control.
  
• Some water purveyors may also install a check valve on their meters which they do in an effort to safeguard the quality of the water supply from sources of contamination. These check valves will create a closed system. In some areas even though check valves are not installed they are being planned in the future. In many cases the codes in these areas are requiring a means of controlling thermal expansion in a closed system even though the need is not presently there. They are phasing in the use of expansion tanks so that when the meters are checked there will be a minimal amount of their customers affected.
  
• When water is heated water expands, Hopefully we all agree on that! In a closed system a means of controlling thermal expansion must be provided. Some codes spell it out as a thermal expansion tank, others leave it as a means to control thermal expansion. Whatever is used every code I know of states that the means of control cannot be isolated from the water heater, this means that it must be installed between the valve shutting off the water to the water heater and the water heater itself. This excludes many of the engineer suggested products such as the governor 80 ballcock and relief valves on hosebibbs.

Now lets get down to brass tacks and discuss expansion tanks vs. relief valves...

• The main drawback of the relief valve is that it is plumbed to a drain and when it is relieving pressure or, failed huge amounts of water can run directly to a drain without any indication to the customer unless they notice the meter is spinning away like a top or, they receive a huge wate bill. The installation cost is very close to the cost of an expansion tank so there is no economic advantage. Pressure control is limited to 80 psi to the set point of the relief valve.
  
• The thermal expansion tank on the other hand properly pre-charged and installed has a comparable service life to the relief valve, and maintains a higher degree of pressure control with almost no indictable difference in pressure. There is no discharge of water from the system unless failure has occurred in which case a small discharge from the T&P Valve will be visible. In many areas this was considered as the reasoning for using the expansion tank especially in areas where water conservation is badly needed. Overall it seems like a no-brainer as well.

The subject of T&P Valves is not open for discussion that is a code requirement which if you desire changes to be made you must submit your proposal.

Have a nice day and keep shoveling the muck...
The end of that ditch is out there.

I dropped out of engineering school to take a plumbing job when I saw a friends paycheck who was an engineer....

Excellent post Red.

 

[Redwood]

Redwood, just spent the last 1/2 hr out lining what was in your last post then hit the wrong key and it went away.
Thank You for not having me to type that all back in.
Clay

No problem Clay I've hit that same button myself...

 

[Cwhyu2]

At least it`s not redundent now,LOL

 

[Neanderthal Man]

Another voice of reason in a sea of tradesman, as Borat would say "have bone in head"

Oh Dude! Don't be saying that. You know where that always goes.
Here come the "Cave Man Jokes." When you have a bone structure like ours it just doesn't make sense to talk like that.

Come on you know you aren't an engineer, your just a ditch digger for the local 420 laborers union.
If you hadn't gotten thrown out of school you could have been one but oh no you had to be the guy in the dorm with rubber sheets and a bottle of oil beside the bed. Why don't you just stop embarrassing the family and stop arguing with all the plumbers. Clearly you don't know what you are doing and these guys that you are arguing with seem to be a lot smarter than you.

 

[Ballvalve]

Hey I guess you don't read really well do you Ballsvalve? My township along with several others has made it mandatory and in my understanding of the written English words means, required or commanded by authority that upon, changing out an existing waterheater and/or, for new construction, an expansion must be added.

So, that night out, if I don't comply could be in jail. No thanks, I don't like the prison garb, I am too skinny for stripes.

Got it?

So when Stalin told you to go cut trees in Siberia for a few decades in 1946 because your neighbor said you didnt like him, you would have marched right out and ate barley gruel for the rest of your [short] unnatural life? Challenge authority when its wrong.

Cro mag shrill wrote:

QUOTE]but oh no you had to be the guy in the dorm with rubber sheets and a bottle of oil beside the bed

.

Yes, and a nice patch of rabbit fur as a rosemary oil applicator.
And 2 or 3 nubile young tarts in need of a FULL massage to get them ready for that hard test tomorrow. That was my best education for a life of hard work.

 

[Ballvalve]

Hot Dang Jim, U sayed a mouthful rite thar. Ann it makes komplete cents ta me.
But don git yer hopes up dat deez guys will komprehend a lick of it.
Ya gotta realeyes dat we iz dealin with General Engineerin Contracters here an dats a whole lot differin from dem engineers you worked with in the Defense Industry. Dem guys you worked with are like rocket scientists comparing ta dez guys.

Jess so ya knowz what a General Engineerin Contractor duz I put a pitcher of one workin below.

View attachment 13190

Jess so ya knowz watcher workin with.

Nah, thats just some imbecile southern hillbilly waiting for the engineer with the excavator to dig the hole for the bison to fall in. RW is going to be at the bottom as the "catcher" so as to not bruise the meat.

 

[Ballvalve]

If the so called engineers that are complaining so badly ever pulled a permit and did work that was inspected, then you wouldn't have had this thread. They would be arguing with the inspecter until they were blue in the face and it wouldn't change a thing.
Not a blessed thing.

Dooh!

I would like to think that a "real engineer" wouldn't be so thick headed as to argue with a plumbing inspector enforcing a commonly agreed upon code.

The tanks are not required here, but I would use one on a closed system. Except I would add a 100 or 120 intermediary relief valve to tell the homeowner when his bag broke.

And our sarcastic debating here is a far from arguing with an inspector.

 

[Terry]

I argue with an inspector like the president talks to the queen.

What does that mean?
I have no idea.
When I talk to an inspector, it's just to show him the job, the permit, and get it signed real quick so we can both go on to our next meeting. Maybe a compliment from the inspector, which is always nice.
It is pretty nice looking work.

 

[Redwood]

The tanks are not required here, but I would use one on a closed system. Except I would add a 100 or 120 intermediary relief valve to tell the homeowner when his bag broke.

Well then why did we go through 5 pages of moronic comments from you to muddy the issue?
I said you were free to add a relief about 4 pages ago...

Do you just like to jump on a soapbox and hear yourself speak?

So when Stalin told you to go cut trees in Siberia for a few decades in 1946 because your neighbor said you didnt like him, you would have marched right out and ate barley gruel for the rest of your [short] unnatural life? Challenge authority when its wrong.

Well I guess the main difference is that here even you can climb on a soapbox and proclaim that you desire to be the Gubenneer of California and if elected you can tell the state legislature you woud like them to make sweeping changes to the laws of your state...

The only hitch is that when you get on your soapbox you you tend to say somethings that at best tend to raise an eyebrow so I would not hold high hopes of gaining the votes required....

 

[Cookie]

So when Stalin told you to go cut trees in Siberia for a few decades in 1946 because your neighbor said you didnt like him, you would have marched right out and ate barley gruel for the rest of your [short] unnatural life? Challenge authority when its wrong.


QUOTE]


You got to pick your fights wisely in life. I see no sense in challenging the township over adding on expansion tanks.

 

[Cwhyu2]

What does that mean?
I have no idea.
When I talk to an inspector, it's just to show him the job, the permit, and get it signed real quick so we can both go on to our next meeting. Maybe a compliment from the inspector, which is always nice.
It is pretty nice looking work.

I always had respect for the inspectors I worked with,and there where 6 plus the chief and I got to know them all over the years.I have never had a failed inspection may be an add on or two and that was fine.I would never argue with an inspector as that is a show of disrespect, and then you have the same inspector on another job and he/she will give you a hard time.
I went through 4yrs of plumbing school and on the job training to get my journey mans and the guys that I worked with had a combined experiance of 100 yrs.
All the older Plumbers on this site are very knowledgeable and I also learn from them.