No water in pressure tank and told it is ok after new well pump placed

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Bret Barnes

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I just had my well pump replaced. I went into the basement to do a sanity check and make sure that there were no leaks in the basement. I decided to see how much water was in the pressure tank and found it to be empty. I'm not sure exactly what the size is but it is about 5 feet tall and about 1.5 feet in diameter. I also wanted to see how often the pump turned on.

The pump will turn on when it hits 45psi and turns off 30 second or so later at 74psi. When one shower is running, it takes about 1 minute for the pump to turn on again at 45psi.

Question: Is it truly OK to not have water in the pressure tank and should the pump be turning off and on every 1 minute when only one shower is running????

I called the folks that placed the new well pump and she said that what I just described above is within normal limits.....
 

Reach4

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An 81 gallon tank might be 57 inches tall and 22 inches in diameter. That would hold about 20 gallons of water for cycling when set up well. A 32 gallon tank might be 45 inches tall and 15-3/8 inches in diameter. That would hold about 8 gallons of water for cycling when set up well.

A pressure switch should normally be set to have a 20 PSI range. So in your case, you should probably narrow that.

A showerhead might spray 2.5 gallons per minute. You could catch water with a bucket and measure if it mattered, but that is going to be in the ball park.

A properly sized tank should cause the pump to run for at least a minute. Running 30 seconds is not terrible, but longer would be better. So what is going on? It could be a few things. Your tank could be waterlogged, and need replacing. That is most likely.

Suppose your pump delivers 10 GPM, the tank has a 5 gallon drawdown, and the shower draws 5 GPM. That matches your numbers. So does the pump delivering 5 GPM, 2.5 gallon drawdoww, and 2.5 GPM shower.

You should set the air precharge on the tank. I would do that first, since it is free, easy, and it may turn up a problem. To do that, make the water pressure be zero, and use a tire pressure gauge and pump to adjust. 2 PSI below the cut-on pressure for a submersible (down the hole) pump, and 3 to 4 PSI for a jet pump.

Chances are that the pressure tank is going bad. When was that replaced? Your symptoms are not that alarming yet. Not quite right, but not terrible.
 
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Valveman

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When I see a pressure switch with a wide band like 45/74, I know someone has been trying to reduce the pump cycling. But widening the band over stretches the bladder and shortens the life of the tank. So I am pretty sure the bladder is broken, as you should have more than 1 minute of off time, even if it is only a 32 gallon size tank.

The tank feeling light is actually a good thing. It is possible someone just added too much air charge, and the tank really isn't holding much water. That would be an easy fix just to let out the air to 43 PSI, if you stay with the 45/74 pressure switch setting. With 38 PSI air charge and a 40/60 switch, a 32 gallon tank should hold about 8 gallons of water. Even if the tank has the proper air charge and is working as it should, that pump will probably still cycle a LOT when you are taking a shower.

I would replace the tank with a PK1A constant pressure kit. It cost less, the tank is smaller, and it will deliver strong constant pressure for as long as a shower is running.
 

Keith Ubben

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I would replace the tank with a PK1A constant pressure kit. It cost less, the tank is smaller, and it will deliver strong constant pressure for as long as a shower is running.

On the website it says "The PSIDE-KICK pressure tank kit is a complete constant pressure control package for most pump systems with demands from 1 to 25 gpm. Replaces large pressure tanks."

Certainly your pump is going to cycle far more with the PK1A compared to the 119 gallon right? The phrase "replaces large pressure tanks" confuses me.
 

Bannerman

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your pump is going to cycle far more with the PK1A compared to the 119 gallon right?
No. The CSV will reduce the flow rate from the pump, to match the rate water is being utilized. Even while equipped with a 4.5 gallon tank, the pump will not cycle while 1 GPM or greater is being utilized.

Suggest viewing the video above to learn how a CSV operates.
 

Valveman

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On the website it says "The PSIDE-KICK pressure tank kit is a complete constant pressure control package for most pump systems with demands from 1 to 25 gpm. Replaces large pressure tanks."

Certainly your pump is going to cycle far more with the PK1A compared to the 119 gallon right? The phrase "replaces large pressure tanks" confuses me.

Most people do not realize a 119 gallon tank only holds 30 gallons of water. Actually the pump will cycle less or really not at all with the 4.5 gallon size tank and CSV when using water for long periods like for sprinklers. The pump will cycle a bit more for intermittent uses like toilet flushing. But overall the PK1A with the 4.5 gallon tank will cause the pump to cycle less than a 119 gallon tank by itself. It is one of those "have to see it to believe it" things. So, we offer a complete money back guarantee. But no one has ever taken me up on it in 30 years so far. Not only will the CSV in the PK1A make your pump cycle less and last longer, but will give you strong constant pressure to the sprinklers and showers. It is another one of those "see it to believe it" things as you will no longer even need soap in the shower. Lol!
 

Keith Ubben

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Thanks for the further information. I did watch the video but wrote my reply wrong. Instead of cycle I should have said runs. Is the pump using a CSV setup running more then a large pressure tank setup (in my case tandem 119 gallons). Also is it advised to run a large pressure tank with a CSV or does that provide nothing of value?
 

Valveman

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Thanks for the further information. I did watch the video but wrote my reply wrong. Instead of cycle I should have said runs. Is the pump using a CSV setup running more then a large pressure tank setup (in my case tandem 119 gallons). Also is it advised to run a large pressure tank with a CSV or does that provide nothing of value?

Yes the CSV makes the pump run longer as it runs for as long as you are using any water, then for another minute to fill the pressure tank. Pumps are made to run 24/7/365. I have one that hasn't shut off in over 20 years so far. Running is what keeps the pump from cycling itself to death, which cycling is what a pump doesn't like to do. I can tell from you having two 119 gallon size tanks that you know how bad cycling is for a pump. But even with two 119 gallon tanks (60 gallons of water) the pump still cycles for every 60 gallons used. That is not much cycling compared to someone who doesn't understand how bad cycling is and only has a 44 gallon size tank (10 gallons of water). However it is still cycling and has all the other problems that go with cycling.

Yes you can use a Cycle Stop Valve with a large tank, even with two huge tanks like yours. As far as the number of cycles goes, the CSV with a large tank really is the best of both worlds. The two big tanks would give you 60 gallons to use for flushing, showering, etc., before the pump cycled even once. Then the CSV would keep the pump running constantly if you used more than 60 gallons or used water for long term, like running sprinklers for hours or days. But just like the number of cycles you get from having two big tanks should not be detrimental to the pump, the few cycles you will have with small demands using a CSV and a 4.5 gallon size tank would also not be detrimental to the pump. Then for long demands the CSV makes water go right past the tank, so it doesn't matter what size tank it is.

The money wasted on the two big tanks will provide nothing of value, and will cause big pressure fluctuation. With a 40/60 switch, two big tanks will cause the pressure to go down to 40 and be at the low side of the pressure delta for a long time. You could take a shower or two as the pressure dwindled down from 60 to 40 PSI. Using a CSV with two large tanks the constant pressure setting would be 59 PSI. So once the pump came on you would have strong constant 59 PSI for as long as you wanted to shower, even if that was a month. Only when you shut off the shower would the CSV let the tanks fill to 60 PSI in a minute or so and the pump would be shut off.

With a 4.5 gallon size tank (1 gallon of water) the pressure drops from 60 to 40 before you even know it, and the CSV holds a constant 50 PSI for as long as you are in the shower, even if the shower or sprinklers are on for a month. A constant 50 PSI in the shower will seem like so much stronger pressure than when the pump is cycling between 40 and 60 over and over, no matter the size of tank. 50 PSI constant also gives better sprinkler coverage than when the pressure is going up and down from 40 to 60 over and over.

I know it seems strange to go from two 119 gallon tanks to a little 4.5 gallon or 10 gallon size tank. But we have been doing this for nearly 30 years. Not only will you not hear any complaints, but hundreds of reviews will tell you how well it works here. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews
You can also see a video of a similar tank being replaced on this video.
 
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