New Toilet Tie In

[Claraarcher]

As part of the bathroom renovation I am adding a master bathroom and need to tie into the old bathroom waste line and stack. The old waste lines are copper with PVC for the new master lines tying in.

I found some issues that I think will be ok but not 100% to code and unlikely that i can get it to code no matter what I do.

Issues:

1. old vent line is slightly pitched the wrong way less that 1/8 of an inch on a 3" line.
2. The old toilet went into a 90 and then horizontally to the stack this was also pitched back maybe 1/8 of an inch (definitely less than 1/4 off)
3. to even attempt to fix this would require a ton of work and I do not think there is enough height to use PVC from the stack as joists are only 9"
4. I had to cut out the old 90 copper and the only filling that would line up close to where the old flange was is a 3" street Tee, everything else was either too tall or put the flange at 14" or closer to the wall.
5. shower stall is about 8 feet away from the 3" main and will connect into the 90 with a 2" heel inlet.
6. the connection from the old to the new is going through a celling joist

There were no issues with the original bathroom and i used it for years and i believe it has been like this for over 30 years. The copper is not rotted out at all and looks to be in excellent shape.

Questions:

1. is the back pitch going to be an issue as a result of adding on a new bathroom (shower stall, vanity and toilet)
2. I don't think a tee is code but I have no choice here for re-installing the old toilet(at least not that I can figure out) would it fail inspection? Any suggestions?
3. I assume I should aim to cut through the floor joist as low as possible to ensure i have enough pitch on the 2" shower drain line?
4. I will add a tee just downstream of the new toilet and that will tie into the 2" vent that also services the new vanity.

I added a PDF of a picture that shows to old and new as I am thinking it will be run. I will use a closet bend for the new toilet not the 90 in the picture and i will add another tee for the new toilet vent. (I don't have another tee right now).

I am hoping that with such a minor back pitch the new bathroom will provide enough "flow" or "whoosh" so that nothing gets clogged up considering the old set up just had 1 toilet into a 90 now there is a tee instead with slight back pitch.

I might be able to get pitch from the transition point but I am afraid that will prevent the coupling from sealing properly?

I know there is a lot of info above but I hope the picture explains it better.

Thanks for any help and advice you can offer.

 

[Terry]

I would not use a low heel to pick up the shower. It's basically a santee with the wrong bend for a horizontal fitting. They should never be used horizontally.

The end where I believe a toilet is going, should have a 45 to the last bend. Why add a short turn 90 when the same location is accomplished by using a 45 degree angle?

Is that a santee on it's back for the other toilet? The poop tends to land and spread out both ways. I guess you're hoping the other toilet sweeps that down for you.

And yes, you have a situation there that we plumbers couldn't get a passing grade on if inspected. Sometimes the fix is to start further out of the picture, knowing that you intend to have two bathrooms when done.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jeff H Young]

I would expect unsatisfactory results couldn't perform that work in clear conscious. I'd look for other ways tear out some walls below a drop ceiling whatever it takes. maybe try moving locations of toilet and or shower to where proper or close to proper practice will work. hate to be negative but I'm not seeing this as acceptable

 

[Claraarcher]

I would not use a low heel to pick up the shower. It's basically a santee with the wrong bend for a horizontal fitting. They should never be used horizontally.

The end where I believe a toilet is going, should have a 45 to the last bend. Why add a short turn 90 when the same location is accomplished by using a 45 degree angle?

Is that a santee on it's back for the other toilet? The poop tends to land and spread out both ways. I guess you're hoping the other toilet sweeps that down for you.

And yes, you have a situation there that we plumbers couldn't get a passing grade on if inspected. Sometimes the fix is to start further out of the picture, knowing that you intend to have two bathrooms when done.

i was using the heel-in just because i could slide the 8 foot 2" pipe straight through with no cuts and then weld it to the heel but can move it over i think and into a wye.

i can put a 45 for the new toilet - thanks! i didn't even think of that one

the tee (pvc one) near the stack (old toilet location) is not on its side its straight up. The copper tee to the left of the metal adapter is going into the vent that is in the wall. This is the one that is back pitched a bit.

Yea i was concerned about "poop" not flowing correctly with that tee but nothing else fits. if i use a wye with a 45 it sticks up past the floor by about an inch and puts the toilet flange to close to the wall to the right but I guess that's better than wrong pipes as the inspector will fail that for sure.

i am really getting worried here as none of the plumbers that said they could do it (for the cost of my kidneys) said anything about having to re-do the entire system or raise the floor etc.. scary to think how much i'd be out if i had to pay them and then just fail the whole project.

 

[Claraarcher]

I would expect unsatisfactory results couldn't perform that work in clear conscious. I'd look for other ways tear out some walls below a drop ceiling whatever it takes. maybe try moving locations of toilet and or shower to where proper or close to proper practice will work. hate to be negative but I'm not seeing this as acceptable

because the floor joists in the new bathroom run opposite of the old bathroom this is the easiest place to put the new toilet. Plus i would not want to put 4" holes through more than one joist.

I could raise the floor a bit but would it be ok to have a 45 into a wye and have the end of the 45 flush with the plywood or even possibly the tiled floor? i need an offset flange as it is but i think even if i get one that goes into the 45 (male flange?) i would have to trim it to to that once welded in it rests on the tiles. Then i would have to figure out how to put some screws in to the sub floor through tiles (should be easy enough to do.

I would do this if that would pass inspection.

 

[Jeff H Young]

Maybe it will pass inspection. It shouldn't pass but for whatever reason they do

 

[Claraarcher]

Maybe it will pass inspection. It shouldn't pass but for whatever reason they do

It should not pass because the fitting would be level with the sub floor or slightly higher?

 

[Claraarcher]

seems like no combination of fittings is gonna work. If i get the vent lined up the toilet flange goes off to 14" or less from the wall.

The space is tight too and there is only 17.5" from center of the vertical stack to the center of the toilet flange (using 15" clearance on each side)

I am pretty sure i cannot have a smaller vent that get smaller on the way down since there is a double vanity wet vented into the 3" stack. so that eliminates using a side inlet 90 bend off the vertical stack which was the next closest set up.

Tried a combo wye but did not line up.

not sure if anyone has any other ideas but thanks a lot again for the help.

 

[Jeff H Young]

I'd try to get rid of heeloutlet on side and santee on back and no back fall . those floor joists look like 2x4 or 2 x6 ? did you add the second floor?

 

[Claraarcher]

I'd try to get rid of heeloutlet on side and santee on back and no back fall . those floor joists look like 2x4 or 2 x6 ? did you add the second floor?

I can get rid of the heel inlet but the santee is the only fitting that will work and only because its a street tee.

A long radius combo wye doesn't work. a wye with a 45 doesn't work either.

Are there any other fittings that have the same dimensions as the street tee but would be more inline with code?

If I cut back to the stack I still cant figure out a combination of fittings that works to pick up the existing 3" vent, then have a wye to the old toilet location and have the flange in the right spot.

I think I bought every 3" fitting Depot and Lowes carry lol


edit: Floor joist are original to house and are 9" (oddly not 9.5") in the new bathroom area (addition done in 1980's) the floor joists are 11" which is also oddly not 11.5" - this house is just a pain!!

 

[wwhitney]

In your picture, that 3" vertical copper on the right by the supply stop, is that a dry vent, or is something draining into it?

And the wall that runs across the middle of the picture, is the WC on the far side going to be perpendicular to that wall (tank against that wall), or parallel (tank against the wall with the vertical 3" copper)?

While it's trouble, you may need to remove the copper tee just downstream of your Fernco, as well as the quarter bend at the top of the drain stack, so you can adjust the location of the 3" drain within the joist bay.

You don't really want that 3" horizontal drain to pass under your WC location, for the reasons you've discovered. Passing alongside would be better. About the only compliant option for passing directly underneath would be an upright wye with a 45 degree flange.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Claraarcher]

In your picture, that 3" vertical copper on the right by the supply stop, is that a dry vent, or is something draining into it?

And the wall that runs across the middle of the picture, is the WC on the far side going to be perpendicular to that wall (tank against that wall), or parallel (tank against the wall with the vertical 3" copper)?

While it's trouble, you may need to remove the copper tee just downstream of your Fernco, as well as the quarter bend at the top of the drain stack, so you can adjust the location of the 3" drain within the joist bay.

You don't really want that 3" horizontal drain to pass under your WC location, for the reasons you've discovered. Passing alongside would be better. About the only compliant option for passing directly underneath would be an upright wye with a 45 degree flange.

Cheers, Wayne

Hi Wayne,

The 3" copper vertical is a vent and also picks up the double vanity (do no think you can see it in the pic) so it is a vent but also a drain which is why I believe I cannot reduce to a 2"

I attached a layout of the old and new bathrooms I hope explains the end result I am trying to get to.

I also have pictures of the area I have to work in from the old bath facing the new and from the new facing to the old. The framing is not done yet but there will be a wall between the two rooms.

You can see the vertical drop in the main and the old flange and 90 I cut out just under the plywood.

edit - Added a picture of the vanity line and where it ties into the main stack

 

[wwhitney]

That last photo makes it looks like the 3" combo would fit, with a 3" spigot end closet flange that fits directly into the 3" hub. What's the elevation of the top of the hub relative to your finish floor elevation? And does the barrel of the combo have the correct 1/4" per foot slope?

For the 3" copper vertical, if it's only carrying two lavs, you could downsize it to 2" no problem, possibly 1-1/2". You might want to consider the whole house DWV layout to see if there's any reason to have a 3" vent there, but the IPC, in use in CT, would never require a 3" dry vent on a normal house.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Claraarcher]

That last photo makes it looks like the 3" combo would fit, with a 3" spigot end closet flange that fits directly into the 3" hub. What's the elevation of the top of the hub relative to your finish floor elevation? And does the barrel of the combo have the correct 1/4" per foot slope?

For the 3" copper vertical, if it's only carrying two lavs, you could downsize it to 2" no problem, possibly 1-1/2". You might want to consider the whole house DWV layout to see if there's any reason to have a 3" vent there, but the IPC, in use in CT, would never require a 3" dry vent on a normal house.

Cheers, Wayne

the combo actually is over 2" (2 1/8th aprox) above the floor joist. i should have shown that in a better angle.

hmm interesting I did not think CT would allow a reduction in that vent but making that a 2" from where the vanity ties in down would help but not sure I can get that combo low enough to not stick out past the floor height even after the 3/4 ply , durock and ties are installed.

and the toilet flange would then be about 13 1/2" from the wall.

 

[wwhitney]

Another possibility (although it might put the flange too low):

A 45 degree spigot end closet flange directly into a 3" wye.

Product

www.siouxchief.com

Or you can get a hubbed version of a 45 flange and use a short section of pipe between the two hubs. I would expect that to raise the flange by at least 1" (71% of the 1.5" hub depth), although if the hubbed 45 flange is by a different manufacturer, that could introduce another source of height difference.

BTW, if you have to pass a 3" drain line through a joist that is exactly 11" deep, then the hole size is limited to 11/3 = 3.67". So I'd suggest drilling 3-5/8" or 3-3/4" (cheating a little), not 4". Which will require precise drilling, as the pipe OD is 3.5". And the hole can't get closer than 2" to the top or bottom of the joist, so you only have a 7" height range for the hole (~3-1/4" for the center of the hole).

Hopefully the existing 3" drain line elevation is compatible with the above. If not, that's another reason to demo back to the vertical drain stack and redo all of the horizontal 3" line.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Claraarcher]

Another possibility (although it might put the flange too low):

A 45 degree spigot end closet flange directly into a 3" wye.

Product

www.siouxchief.com

Or you can get a hubbed version of a 45 flange and use a short section of pipe between the two hubs. I would expect that to raise the flange by at least 1" (71% of the 1.5" hub depth), although if the hubbed 45 flange is by a different manufacturer, that could introduce another source of height difference.

BTW, if you have to pass a 3" drain line through a joist that is exactly 11" deep, then the hole size is limited to 11/3 = 3.67". So I'd suggest drilling 3-5/8" or 3-3/4" (cheating a little), not 4". Which will require precise drilling, as the pipe OD is 3.5". And the hole can't get closer than 2" to the top or bottom of the joist, so you only have a 7" height range for the hole (~3-1/4" for the center of the hole).

Hopefully the existing 3" drain line elevation is compatible with the above. If not, that's another reason to demo back to the vertical drain stack and redo all of the horizontal 3" line.

Cheers, Wayne

not sure i follow what you are saying about the 45 flange.

on the framing - the bean on the old side of the house is the old rim joist of the house . all the framing on the new bath said is 2 x11 and is the addition done in the 80's. My thinking was that the old rim joist does not carry much weight. Actually when looking at the old framing the rim joist is lower than the actual floor joists so i think i am ok with a 4" but wil raise it to the inspector and get his thoughts.

 

[Claraarcher]

not sure i follow what you are saying about the 45 flange.

on the framing - the bean on the old side of the house is the old rim joist of the house . all the framing on the new bath said is 2 x11 and is the addition done in the 80's. My thinking was that the old rim joist does not carry much weight. Actually when looking at the old framing the rim joist is lower than the actual floor joists so i think i am ok with a 4" but wil raise it to the inspector and get his thoughts.

edit - ohh i can only cut a less than 4" hole on the 11" side - ughh more to worry about.

 

[wwhitney]

not sure i follow what you are saying about the 45 flange.

The combo is a single fitting equivalent to a wye, plus a street 45 directly into the branch of the wye. If you keep the wye but replace that street 45 with a 45 spigot-end flange, I think the flange may end up lower than if you put a straight spigot end flange into the side branch of a combo. Not 100% sure that's true, though.

At first glance, drilling the former rim joist, where the only 2x9" framing meets the new 2x11" framing, is fine. That rim joist isn't being subject to bending, it's fully supported by a wall beneath it, yes? If it's only subject to compression, with no load at the hole location, just from the studs above, the whole size shouldn't be limited.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Claraarcher]

The combo is a single fitting equivalent to a wye, plus a street 45 directly into the branch of the wye. If you keep the wye but replace that street 45 with a 45 spigot-end flange, I think the flange may end up lower than if you put a straight spigot end flange into the side branch of a combo. Not 100% sure that's true, though.

At first glance, drilling the former rim joist, where the only 2x9" framing meets the new 2x11" framing, is fine. That rim joist isn't being subject to bending, it's fully supported by a wall beneath it, yes? If it's only subject to compression, with no load at the hole location, just from the studs above, the whole size shouldn't be limited.

Cheers, Wayne

well the first floor is about 2 feet smaller than the top floor meaning the outside wall of the op floor sits on a cantilever. Typical raised ranch house in the Northeast - a dumb design for this area imo.

I grabbed a 45 spigot flange and will mess with it tomorrow but i still don't think it will fit as the flange will still be too close to the wall and unless they make an offset version then it will also sit 15" from the back wall (not too big of a deal).

Think i am sufficiently beaten down now that i am considering doing out a bump out in the room below the new bathroom (first floor of the addition that was done in the 80's. There is a closet that was supposed to be for storage but i can punch a hole through and tie in the new bathroom lower down the stack. It just will look silly to have a bump out on one wall and not even centered but that might be the easiest way.

 

[Claraarcher]

well the first floor is about 2 feet smaller than the top floor meaning the outside wall of the op floor sits on a cantilever. Typical raised ranch house in the Northeast - a dumb design for this area imo.

I grabbed a 45 spigot flange and will mess with it tomorrow but i still don't think it will fit as the flange will still be too close to the wall and unless they make an offset version then it will also sit 15" from the back wall (not too big of a deal).

Think i am sufficiently beaten down now that i am considering doing out a bump out in the room below the new bathroom (first floor of the addition that was done in the 80's. There is a closet that was supposed to be for storage but i can punch a hole through and tie in the new bathroom lower down the stack. It just will look silly to have a bump out on one wall and not even centered but that might be the easiest way.

I think the best way to approach this is to put back the old toilet flange to where is was located so i do not have to change anything else to the left of the wye in the picture attached.

To hook up the new bathroom i will cut the hole in the same spot as if i was to continue the run from old to new but use a few 45s or 90s to bring the line along side to stack, break through the ceiling below and tie the new bath into the main via a wye and a 45.

so from where i cut the main stack to add the wye i would run straight up along side the old stack and al li have to do i some framing a nd sheet rock to close it back in. below is what it would be once i cut through from the new bath side.

Please let me know what you think