New construction and needing help!

[Valveman]

If you install a tank 30'-40' above the house, it will take 17 PSI pressure to put water in that tank. Then less than 17 PSI is all the gravity pressure you will have, which isn't enough. The same thing with a pressure tank. You will only get out as much pressure as you can put in, which isn't much. Plus to get a pressure tank that would hold 50 gallons of water you would need two 119 gallon size pressure tanks.

I would just install a jet pump with a PK1A control kit on the line and see if it can supply enough water for the jet pump. If not, go back and add a cistern to draw water out of.

 

[Reach4]

or like mentioned before... if the city will push the water up the hill past the house, I can bury a storage tank and let it gravity take is back down to the house and through a pump. This would put the tank roughly 30-40 ft above slab about 30ish yards away... which of these options sound better?

35 ft of head is about 15 psi. http://extraconversion.com/pressure/feet-of-head/feet-of-head-to-pounds-per-square-inch.html

That means that you would need about 15 psi or more to fill the tank, and the tank would provide about 15 psi to the house-- potentially at high gpm.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Uphill]

Ok I’ve decided to go with a tank size of about 125g maybe larger if I have the room. I will put a CSV kit with pressure tank on the pump as well.

can anyone recommend a good quiet pump for this application. If specific part numbers or links could be posted that would be great! Any other key specific parts I will need as well would be great! Thank you

 

[Bannerman]

recommend a good quiet pump for this application.

Valveman suggested using a submersible pump and he included a diagram in post #13 on how to set that up. The largest difference from his diagram, your water supply is municipal so you will not require a well pump but you will require either a float valve similar to in a toilet tank, or a float controlled switch to shut off an electric solenoid valve to stop water entry once the cistern is full.

For your type of application, a Hallmark 1HP 33 GPM submersible is frequently recommended as it is only ~$150. Although that pump is capable of greater flow than you will need, the CSV will reduce the pump flow rate to match whatever water use you require.

In post #7, you said 1/2" to the house. A home with 3.5 baths will typically utilize a 1.25" main line to ensure sufficient flow to the number of fixture units within your home.

 

[Uphill]

Thanks for the feedback so far. The main into the house is bigger than 1/2 I’ll try and take a pic of it tomorrow. It may be 3/4 or 1”.

I plan on using a tank similar to what you often see for large mobile spray rigs with bulkhead fittings and a screw on cap for easy Maintanace. It will be mounted over the utility room centrally locacated along with the hvac unit and hot water tank due to the 16’ sidewalls of my building. I’m not sure a submersible pump would work in this application would it? I figured it would be better to mount a jet pump that pulls from the storage tank?? Please correct me if I’m wrong. The tank would be like the one pictured and it is for fresh water.

 

[Uphill]

I have 14-15 psi at the hydrant and the house is a bit higher.. I may have trouble getting to my desired tank location.

 

[Reach4]

have 14-15 psi at the hydrant and the house is a bit higher..

Looks more like 11 or 12 psi to me.

Anyway, it confirms that altitude is the main problem, as you suspected. Had you used 2 inch pipe instead of 1 inch pipe, you still would have needed storage.

 

[Uphill]

If I were to bury a tank just below the hydrant I suppose then I could just put a jet pump in the line at the house correct? If tank size is correct it wouldn’t ever even run the risk of running dry. Couldn’t I just run the fill line in, then line out to the house? No float switch since the pressure is so low in the tank.. freezing is really not a problem here. Plus I would be below frost line.. if I did that I would not want to run any kind of power source to the tank.

 

[2stupid2fixit]

another thought- since the water supply I have is constant (as long as the main doesn’t break) would it be possible just to plumb the main feed into a large well style pressure tank?? If I had a large pressure tank that held say 50 (ex) gallons and would be constantly being replaced at 2.5 GPM, could that work..? Or even compound tanks? I’m new at all this so sorry for all the questions but this water supply is very important and the last piece of the puzzle for our home.

thank you!!

the issue (as i am learning about this stuff too) is the 50 gallon tank has a drawdown of only a fraction of 50 gallons and then there is the turtle race to refill it. The way you describe it, you'd need a very large pressure tank. Like big enough to see from far away. valveman drew up a cistern setup earlier in this thread that looks to me like a great solution.

 

[Bannerman]

No float switch since the pressure is so low in the tank..

So what are you suggesting, to allow the water to overflow the cistern tank continuously?

A cistern will need to be vented to atmosphere (unsealed) as water entering the tank will displace air so the air will be pushed out, and as the water level is dropping when pumping water from the cistern, air will need to enter.

If you don't want a float controlled electric switch, a float controlled non-electric water valve could be used, similar in function to the type within a toilet tank.

You previously asked for recommendations for a quiet pump which is why I reminded you of Valvemen's suggestion for using a submersible pump. The Hallmark pump recommended, will be suitable for your requirements, and will be quieter and less expensive than a jet pump.

If there are any concerns with loss of water from the municipal system, or if you intend to irrigate your property, you may want to consider a larger cistern to store several days supply of water. If there is no other source for water nearby for the Fire Dept to draw from, a larger cistern may supplement the water the FD will transport in their tanker truck if the FD is ever needed.

 

[Reach4]

If I were to bury a tank just below the hydrant I suppose then I could just put a jet pump in the line at the house correct? If tank size is correct it wouldn’t ever even run the risk of running dry. Couldn’t I just run the fill line in, then line out to the house? No float switch since the pressure is so low in the tank..

If you don't have a float switch, water could come out of the insect-blocking air vent.

Your tank cannot be sealed to air, because air has to escape when you fill the tank, and air has to come in when you suck water out of the tank.

 

[Valveman]

If you just place the jet pump and PK1A controls at the hydrant location, the jet pump will be fed with 10-12 PSI and should deliver all the water you want. I would try it directly connected before adding a cistern.

 

[wwhitney]

If you just place the jet pump and PK1A controls at the hydrant location, the jet pump will be fed with 10-12 PSI and should deliver all the water you want.

The supply will still be limited by the frictional losses of the 1300' of pipe. If the jet pump can suck at 10 psi, then there's only 20 psi to overcome those losses. That mean that if the pipe is 1.0" ID, you can 7 gpm out of the system. If it's 1.1" ID, you can get 9 gpm out of it. I'm using:

http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Valveman]

When using a CSV as in the PK1A kit the flow will be the same as what is being used. When one shower is on there is only 3 GPM flow. Only when several taps are on at the same time will the flow be enough to satisfy several taps or 7+ GPM. There will be less than less than 7 GPM flow most of the time and there will be very little friction loss in the pipe. The Jet pump will also still draw water as the incoming pressure drops to as low as negative 24' or negative 10 PSI.

 

[Reach4]

The supply will still be limited by the frictional losses of the 1300' of pipe. If the jet pump can suck at 10 psi, then there's only 20 psi to overcome those losses. That mean that if the pipe is 1.0" ID, you can 7 gpm out of the system. If it's 1.1" ID, you can get 9 gpm out of it.

Setting up the system so that the jet pump draws directly from the city pipe, but letting you add the cistern tank if needed later, seems like a really good idea to me.

The same pump system would be used both ways, and if you could avoid the maintenance and treatment of a tank, that should be good. 7 gpm is good for most houses.

 

[wwhitney]

Setting up the system so that the jet pump draws directly from the city pipe, but letting you add the cistern tank if needed later, seems like a really good idea to me.

Agreed.

I just wanted to point out that the cistern-less system will have a maximum flow that is governed by the 1300' lateral friction losses. If you replace the yard hydrant with a not grossly undersized jet pump and run it with the output wide open, whatever flow you get (7-9 gpm estimated, depending on the exact ID of the lateral) will be the maximum flow the system can provide. A bigger pump won't help.

Hopefully it will be enough flow to avoid a cistern.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Reach4]

However you do it, I would put a pressure gauge that also measures vacuum on the input to the jet pump. If you ever see lower pressure (higher vacuum) than maybe 24 inHg, pump slower.

 

[Valveman]

However you do it, I would put a pressure gauge that also measures vacuum on the input to the jet pump. If you ever see lower pressure (higher vacuum) than maybe 24 inHg, pump slower.

Yes and if it draws a vacuum the cistern would prevent that.

 

[Uphill]

I like where all this is going!! I will have to supply the pump with power which I won’t have for a couple weeks. Can any you suggest the pump that you would use here?

thank you!

 

[Reach4]

I like where all this is going!! I will have to supply the pump with power which I won’t have for a couple weeks. Can any you suggest the pump that you would use here?

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/cistern-pump-and-pressure-tank-setup.87418/ mentions some pumps and methods