New 40/60 Pressure switch and bladder tank cant maintain pressure

[Mark W]

I recently had a bladder go bad in my tank which was causing my pressure switch to rapidly short cycle so I had the tank professionally replaced and I thought everything was fixed. I went and checked the tank because I heard the switch kicking on when no water was being used. Turns out the 40/60 kicks on at 40PSI and raises it quickly to 60PSI and then it bleeds and loses pressure down to 40PSI with 3-5 minutes and the cycle repeats.

I changed the pressure switch and gauge myself, noticed they were gunked up with iron sludge and while doing so I opened the faucet and notice no water came out of the tank. I believe the tank is not getting any water, as I could move the tank very easily. I checked the tank's air and it was around 40PSI so I dropped it to 38PSI and the tank still doesnt fill. I am at a loss here. I am having trouble getting ahold of the guy who did the work and I would rather not be told by someone else I need a whole new submersible pump etc. if not needed.

I have a high water table and use a softner.

I would very much appreciate your help. I have found no related cases to this to try and help me diagnose why no water is going in the tank while it constantly cycles between 40-60PSI every 5 minutes. Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

urns out the 40/60 kicks on at 40PSI and raises it quickly to 60PSI

How quickly?

and then it bleeds and loses pressure down to 40PSI with 3-5 minutes and the cycle repeats.

There is a leak somewhere. Turn off the valve to the house. Does the cycling still occur? Where is your pump?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Mark W]

How quickly? 10-15 seconds. I didnt time it

There is a leak somewhere. Turn off the valve to the house. Does the cycling still occur? Where is your pump?

I also believe there is a leak because it sounds like water is running through the line but no water is being used. I believe the cycling still occurs. I turned the main value off which is right after the faucet on the line coming in the house from the well. My pump is a submersible in the well. Really appreciate your quick reply. I also dont know if I had a potential leak prior to my waterlogged tank being replaced..

 

[Reach4]

On your Mac, I see.

1. How quickly?
   
2. Turn off the valve to the house. Does the cycling still occur?
   
3. Where is your pump?
   
4. What is "the line"? We can't see what you are referring to.

 

[Mark W]

1. Takes 28 seconds to rise from 40 to 60PSI
2. Yes the cycling still occurs when the valve to the house is off (yellow handle up in the picture)
3. submersible pump in the well
4. See picture

 

[Boycedrilling]

You've got a leak. Could be a hole in the pipe in between the well and the pressure tank, a hole in the drop pipe in the well, or a bad check valve that is letting pressurized water back flow back out the pump intake. It's one of the three.

You've got a check valve right there at the tank tee. So that one is definitely bad if the ball valve isn't leaking

 

[Mark W]

You've got a leak. Could be a hole in the pipe in between the well and the pressure tank, a hole in the drop pipe in the well, or a bad check valve that is letting pressurized water back flow back out the pump intake. It's one of the three.

I very much appreciate your response. How would you approach solving the issue and what are the estimated costs in fixing this be? Thanks

 

[Boycedrilling]

turn the pump on. Let it build pressure and shut off. Close the ball valve. Does the pressure drop? It shouldn't. If the pressure drops, cut the pvc past the ball valve, you can glue it back together later. Does any water leak thru the ball valve now that you have cut the line? If no leakage, your leaking back thru the check valve there at the tank tee. But that's not your real problem. In fact you don't even want a check valve there. Next I'd probably remove the well cap and see if you can hear or see the water leak.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Those are the two easy and inexpensive check you can do yourself.

Next is isolating your waterline from the well to the house to see if it holds pressure. If it holds pressure, then you're down to pullI got the pump to either replace pipe or a check valve.

Where in PA? We're sending 3 people with our fire dept back there next week. KME is almost done with two new Ridgerunner urban interface fire trucks for us.

 

[Mark W]

Those are the two easy and inexpensive check you can do yourself.

Next is isolating your waterline from the well to the house to see if it holds pressure. If it holds pressure, then you're down to pullI got the pump to either replace pipe or a check valve.

Where in PA? We're sending 3 people with our fire dept back there next week. KME is almost done with two new Ridgerunner urban interface fire trucks for us.

Thanks for your guidance! I'm in central Bucks county right near Doylestown.

 

[Mark W]

I think the KME your talking about is in Nesquehoning? That is 60 miles north of me. Also would it make a difference if it sounds like I can hear the movement of water rushing near the ball valve - or would it just be making that sound through the whole line and I can really only hear it there because the line coming into the house is wrapped? I looked down the well last and didn't see any water movement (shallow well) when no water was in use. Ill check again today. Thoughts?

 

[LLigetfa]

If the ballvalve to the house was not closing, then you would still be able to draw water from a nearby faucet with it closed. My guess is that checkvalve at the tank is bad and you either have a hole in the pipe or the checkvalve in the pump is also bad.

 

[Mark W]

If the ballvalve to the house was not closing, then you would still be able to draw water from a nearby faucet with it closed. My guess is that checkvalve at the tank is bad and you either have a hole in the pipe or the checkvalve in the pump is also bad.

Yes with the main valve closed I can still draw water at a sink upstairs. With the valve closed the sink starts off at normal pressure and then draws down to a slow but still flowing stream.

 

[Traveller]

If the ballvalve to the house was not closing, then you would still be able to draw water from a nearby faucet with it closed. My guess is that checkvalve at the tank is bad and you either have a hole in the pipe or the checkvalve in the pump is also bad.

If there is a check valve on the pump. I have seen a lot of installations done, mostly by older installers, with the check valve near the bladder tank and not on the pump.

I believe this method is from the era before bladder tanks when galvanised air tanks were recharged with air each time the pump came on. To do so required the delivery pipe to empty itself in the well, allowing valves on the delivery pipe to admit air.

So, if the check valve and the pressure gauge are both on the delivery side of the ball valve, it should be a simple matter of watching the gauge when the pump shuts off. If the ball valve is potentially the problem, turning it to a nearly closed position should throttle the flow of water, causing it to make a distinctive noise thar can easily be heard through a mechanic's stethoscope. If fully closing the ball valve eliminates this noise, the problem is not the check valve.

 

[LLigetfa]

With the valve closed the sink starts off at normal pressure and then draws down to a slow but still flowing stream.

Is it possibly just draining the house pluming or does it keep flowing at that reduced rate? Is there anywhere within that house plumbing where usage could go undetected, such as piping going underground?

 

[Boycedrilling]

Yup your leaking water thru the ball valve. Most likely leaky place is toilets.

Easy way to check a toilet. Lift the tank lid. Squirt some food coloring in to color the water. Wait a few minutes and see if you have colored water in the bowl. If you do, replace the float valve or it might just need adjustment.

 

[Traveller]

Yes with the main valve closed I can still draw water at a sink upstairs. With the valve closed the sink starts off at normal pressure and then draws down to a slow but still flowing stream.

Just read your latest post. That saves testing the ball valve.

I would still test the check valve, once you replace the shutoff ball valve. However, this is beginning to sound like a large hidden leak in your house's plumbing system.

 

[LLigetfa]

If there is a check valve on the pump. I have seen a lot of installations done, mostly by older installers, with the check valve near the bladder tank and not on the pump.

It is common on tanks that don't have a bladder or diaphragm to have a topside checkvalve but they often then have a snifter valve on the upstream side of the checkvalve. Some systems use two bleeders, one above the other in lieu of the snifter. In either case, the checkvalve still exists on the pump in the well. Without a checkvalve on the pump, the backflow can cause the pump to spin in reverse and the sudden change in direction of rotation can break the pump.

Often what happens is that some handyman "fixes" a problem the cheap and dirty way by installing a topside checkvalve. When that C&D fix breaks, the original problem comes back.

 

[Mark W]

Is it possibly just draining the house pluming or does it keep flowing at that reduced rate? Is there anywhere within that house plumbing where usage could go undetected, such as piping going underground?

With the main water ball valve closed the water will still run but at a much reduced rate.

I will try try and check the toilets. Every one was replaced 4 years ago and that was the first place I checked to see if there was any draw on water before I thought it was the a problem again with the well tank system.

 

[Reach4]

I will try try and check the toilets. Every one was replaced 4 years ago and that was the first place I checked to see if there was any draw on water before I thought it was the a problem again with the well tank system.

Your leak rate is about 2 GPM.

Check the drain on your softener to see if it is draining water. Check the drain on your reverse osmosis unit, although 2 gpm would be very high for that.

Look in the yard for a moist area around the well or between the well and the house.