Need solution for well with only 4' of water (but has good inrush, over 10 gpm sustained)

[cdherman]

Well was drilled about 20 years ago using rotary mud drill. 12" casing. At about 40' of depth, the drill dropped 4' and all the water in the bore drained into the void that we hit. The void was filled with moving water. They could not get it any deeper.

We have 4' of water. When we pump, it pulls down a foot or more, but never sucks air. However, we keep on burning up submersible pumps. Too deep and they sit in the mud/clay at the bottom and get hot, too shallow and it seems the top of the pump gets out of the water and it overheats.

A few too many overheats, and the pump is shot.

A jet pump would solve this I guess. But we would have to construct a much larger and deeper pump house to protect from freezing.

We have a pretty large 12" casing. Are there any "short fat" submersible pumps that anyone knows of?

Original well driller passed. Got a new guy coming tomorrow. New guy says the well is in an "alluvial rift" based on the description of events and warns that trying to drill a new well might be hit or miss. Better to try and save the old one.

Thanks in advance for any and all input. Nice forum you have here. I'll try to nose around and be of use to someone. I am just a DIY guy, but on a large farm/ranch in western KS, you have to learn to do a lot of things on your own......

 

[Valveman]

I would use a regular 10 GPM, 1/2HP , 230V submersible well pump. If you seal the flow inducer extremely well above the pump intake it won't suck air until the water level is several more inches. below the intake. Then I would use a ball valve to restrict the pump down to as little as 1 GPM if needed to keep it from sucking air. With the 230V model a Cycle Sensor could then shut the pump off if/when it did pump the well dry, and time how long before it lets the pump come on again.

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[Valveman]

You could also use a cistern submersible with the intake on the bottom. These are not as tough as the regular water well submersibles, but will get you a couple more feet before pumping off. With the 230V model you can still use the Cycle Sensor to protect it and restricting as much as needed is also advised.

Franklin Electric 10C1-05P4-2W230 C1 Series Submersible Cistern Pump 10 GPM 0.5 HP 230V 2-Wire

Franklin Electric 10C1-05P4-2W230 C1 Series Submersible Cistern Pump 10 GPM 0.5 HP 230V 2-Wire

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[cdherman]

I don't know that we have been sucking air. I don't think so, since we never seem to have much air in the lines. But maybe that's not a reliable sign?

I have spent the last couple hours reading up. Read about the "flow inducer" concept. We would have to be careful not to get too low. Last time the pump was pulled up it had some sticky clay on the bottom -- so a flow inducer that was sucking from the bottom might end up sucking debris into the pump. This casing has NO bottom cap. They pushed the casing down and were trying to use a mud bucket to keep removing mud and rocks from the bottom. But failed. So the bottom in mud/clay/rocks.

I'm starting to think the problem is that the bottom of the pump is in the mud. That would overheat too. A different installer LOWERED the pump a year or so ago, in response to the over heating events. Quite possibly he made it worse.

Thanks for all the input already. I have a new sense of hope this can be fixed. We have been relying on untrained local guys that try their best but might not know what they are doing.

 

[Valveman]

The flow inducer will also keep the bottom of the motor out of the muck. If you get it too low it will just stop pumping water. Yes, sitting the bottom of the motor in the mud will cause it to fail. You would be able to see the muck line on the side of the motor if that was the cause of failure. When the pump sucks air it will just lose prime and burn up. You won't see any air in the lines. A Cycle Sensor will shut it off if it does suck air A flow inducer will keep it cooler and out of the muck. A ball valve can restrict the flow so it doesn't suck air. Your best bet is a combination of all three.

 

[Reach4]

I wonder if renting a submersible trash pump would let you suck up. Tsurumi HS2.75S seems to have enough head to lift out of your 40 ft well. I have not checked for clearance dimensions.

https://www.tsurumipump.com/assets/1/6/HS_Performance_Range.pdf

The less expensive Tsurumi Pump HS2.4S would not have sufficient lift.

In placing that 1/2 hp 10 gpm pump with the flow inducer, the vertical placement is important. If you tape tubing down the well, with the bottom even with the bottom of the flow inducer, you could measure how far below the surface of the water the bottom of the flow inducer is. If you add air from a compressor slowly, the maximum pressure will tell you how far below the water surface the end of the tube is. If the bottom of the tube was 3 ft down into the water, for example, the max PSI would be 3 * 0.4335=1.3005 psi. That is near the maximum pressure that a human can blow.

Measuring that pressure is obviously not the job of a common air pressure gauge. You could make your own open manometer to measure pressures like that, or buy a manometer.

 

[cdherman]

I thank you all again for your thoughts.

The flow inducer concept is golden I think. But first we are going to have a better set of well people drop their pump in the well and see what gpm they can sustain. We *think* that we are in a good vein of water, and if that's so, then all sorts of efforts to make the pump reliable make sense. Its been dry for several years in the area. Its also possible that the well itself is failing. If the real problem is poor gpm inflow, then we need to know and act accordingly. We are not poor. We can drill a new well if needed. My brother thinks we should consider drilling a new well as close to the old hand dug well as possible, since that one never went dry, ever. I am opposed to that since it lays in an occasional flood area "a draw as its called in these parts".

The pump has also been short cycling, ever since the beginning. I have been reading more and more about pressure tank theory. It is possible that this is the issue as well, or part of the issue. Original installation from the since deceased driller has a tiny pressure tank stuck into the 12" casing. An old 30 gallon tank was also still in the system, but in the old pump house 100 feet or so away. 20 years ago my father was 62 or so and all my nagging never resulted in addressing these issues. The stupid pressure tank in the casing also meant that earth heat had trouble making it up to the top, and the pressure switch would freeze up. Etc Etc Etc. I am learning.

Reach4, your idea, I can follow. But I also am willing to spend $1000 for a decent camera to make this happen. I follow completely the need to get the pump in just the right location. I think there need to be also verification of how much the water level drops when we are pumping. And over what time. Add to this that this is not just a residence -- its where my brother does a pretty large farm operation that today is pretty water intense due to chemical admin. So his dream is a 100 gpm well. So he can load a 1000 gal sprayer in 10 min. I think he's not going to get that..........

The information and group thought I found here is really re-assuring and heart warming. My parents in their 80s are still living on the farm. Its been their home for 60+ years of marriage. They are happy there, but basics like reliable running water have to happen. They joke about "moving one more time only -- here to the morgue" I'd hate for the well to derail that......

 

[Valveman]

Just using a Cycle Stop Valve with a small tank could help a lot. With the old pressure tanks the pump is running full volume until the tanks fill and then it is off. This puts a big draw on the well for a minute and then no more draw. Cycling is not only bad for the pump but also surges the well. With a CSV the pump steadily draws the amount being used from the well. When taking a 3 GPM shower, it is much better for the well to draw 3 GPM constant for 10 minutes, than to draw 10 GPM for 1 minute, 3 times while taking a 10 minute shower. The biggest pressure tank in the world can't do that.

You may never get a 100 GPM well, but you can still fill a 1000 gallon spray tank in 10 minutes. We call it a nurse tank. Fill a 1000 gallon or larger cistern or storage tank with well water at any rate the well will produce. Then a simple transfer pump can transfer the water from the nurse tank to the spray tank as fast as you want. You can also use a cistern to supply the house, which would allow you to draw water from the well anyway it will let you.

As an old well driller, you can drill a well in a draw. The well just needs to be sealed properly and the casing extended above the high water mark.

 

[cdherman]

We actually already have a 1000 gal nurse tank. It has a high flow pump. But its a pretty temperate climate here, with variation. So protection from frost is a pain. My brother envisions more flow from a frost free solution of some sort.

Someone mentioned above that drawing air does not result in air in the lines. That is good to know, and exposes the possibility that we are not at the 10 gpm or more that I originally asserted.

As for the Cycle stop switch -- planning on doing that, but we need to approach this systematically. First, is the well good enough? Professionals coming Monday to pump it and find out. Then we can decide about finally building a pump house, putting in a larger pressure tank, etc etc etc.

 

[Valveman]

We actually already have a 1000 gal nurse tank. It has a high flow pump. But its a pretty temperate climate here, with variation. So protection from frost is a pain. My brother envisions more flow from a frost free solution of some sort.

Someone mentioned above that drawing air does not result in air in the lines. That is good to know, and exposes the possibility that we are not at the 10 gpm or more that I originally asserted.

As for the Cycle stop switch -- planning on doing that, but we need to approach this systematically. First, is the well good enough? Professionals coming Monday to pump it and find out. Then we can decide about finally building a pump house, putting in a larger pressure tank, etc etc etc.

Do not put in a larger pressure tank. That will make a weak well problem worse. Use more storage but not a larger pressure tank. Bury or spray foam the nurse tank.

 

[Bannerman]

When using a Cycle Stop Valve (CSV), a large pressure tank is not needed as the CSV will prevent the pump from cycling for the entire remaining time water is being used.

Since a CSV will reduce the flow rate from the pump to match the rate of water use, a large pressure tank will result in pressure continuing to drop for a longer time period before the pump becomes activated.

For most residential applications utilizing a CSV, a 4.5 gallon (~1 gallon drawdown) pressure tank will be suitable. The 1 gallon drawdown means using only 1-gallon of water will cause the pump to become activated, to then supply constant pressure for the remaining water usage period.

 

[cdherman]

How long will a CSV last before giving trouble? That is part of the equation here too. There is no well house because of general laziness. But also because the system often worked for years at a time. Then only to freeze up at an inopportune moment. My father would pack some hay bales around it each Fall which solved the freezing - but my dad cannot do that anymore and my brother, well its not his forte'.

Is a CSV affected by time of use, or quantity of water put through it? In other words, do they die based on age or gallons of water through them? We use a fair amount of water out there (old folks very little, but the farming operation much more and sometimes 100 head of cows too.)

Is there a problem with a CSV and a slow trickle use? My mom still has her garden and often adjusts the flow on a hose down to a slow trickle and then moves the hose around all day.

Thanks again for the inputs....

 

[Valveman]

How long will a CSV last before giving trouble? That is part of the equation here too. There is no well house because of general laziness. But also because the system often worked for years at a time. Then only to freeze up at an inopportune moment. My father would pack some hay bales around it each Fall which solved the freezing - but my dad cannot do that anymore and my brother, well its not his forte'.

Is a CSV affected by time of use, or quantity of water put through it? In other words, do they die based on age or gallons of water through them? We use a fair amount of water out there (old folks very little, but the farming operation much more and sometimes 100 head of cows too.)

Is there a problem with a CSV and a slow trickle use? My mom still has her garden and often adjusts the flow on a hose down to a slow trickle and then moves the hose around all day.

Thanks again for the inputs....

Lol! The first ones I put in 34 years ago are still working. Unless you pump a LOT of sand, let it freeze and burst, or catch the hay bales on fire there is no telling how long a CSV1A will last. Even with a lot of sand it will outlast several pumps. The "trickle" your mom is doing is the worst thing you can do to that pump as it is cycling on and off all day. By adding the Cycle Stop Valve and "trickling" more an 1 GPM, the pump will stop cycling itself to death.

The CSV doesn't cause trouble, it solves problems and makes pump systems last longer. That is why pump companies call it a disruptive product and pay people to put negative stuff on the Internet, trying to keep you from figuring it out.

I think there are like 400-500 reviews now. I wish it kept a count of how many. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews