Cycle stop valve versus flow inducer, or both at the same time? I have concerns..

[cdherman]

Me again...

We have a approx 50 ft deep well, 12" casing in less than 4' of water. But the water is moving -- well guys who have never actually seen the well say its in a "rift" -- basically an underground stream. Could not get the hydrodrill to go any deeper, hit rock 20+ years ago.

1/2 submersible pump, smallish pressure tank in the 12" casing. No pump house. Long story why not. 150' away there is a 30 gal pressure tank that the original driller left in place in the old well pump house because the little tank in the casing "was not working"

This worked pretty well for 20 years or so (aside from perennial problems with pressure switch freezing up and father/brother unwilling to build a proper insulated, heated pump house). If the well was pumped at full flow, around 10 gal/min it would eventually stir up sediment, otherwise did not surge or burn up the pump. HOWEVER, I am sure it was short cycling often, since you could tell in the shower in the house how frequently the pressure was rising and falling. This was before I ever discovered this forum -- but I had a haunch this was bad juju at the time.....

Starting 2 years ago we burned up a pump. Local plumber (not professional well guy) installed new pump and dropped it "a little deeper". That pump burned up last year. Came out with thick clay stuck to the bottom, perhaps overheated since it was in the mud. New pump last fall, a little less deep. This is about when I discovered this forum and learned about CSV and flow inducers for shallow situations with small pressure tanks.

At the time, we also engaged said "professional well drillers" in October, before it was too cold to work on the well. Plan was to pump the well with their pump and see just what flow could be sustained before trying to fix things versus drill a new well. EXCEPT the professionals, after many promises, never showed up (this is middle of nowhere, so I will cut them a little slack).

And things were working. So decided to wait till Spring to re-engage. Except the well did not agree with that plan

About 10 days ago pump got to surging, as if it was sucking air, flow also rapidly varying in pressure, pump kicking on and off. My brother pulled the pump -- of course in the process draining all the water from both pressure tanks.. His intent was to install the flow inducer idea. But we could not find a suitable piece of pipe. 4" too small, 5" unobtainium and 6" not available out there either. So he puts the well back together with no changes. And its working again ---- for now.

This all makes me very suspicious that the screwed up pressure tank layout is part of the problem. Why would pulling the pump "fix" things if nothing else was done?

So the plan got hatched to install a cycle stop valve, and get rid of the 30 gallon remote pressure tank. And while we have it all out, a flow inducer too. I have since discovered 5" PVC electrical conduit which should work great.

BUT -- today I starrt reading the CSV installation instructions and read this:

"Be sure that the well has been pumped clean before any valve installations. It is also important that all lines including the pump be flushed clean of debris. Pipe dope or trash pumped into the valve can make the CSV fail. "

THAT got me worrying. The flow inducer will effectively cause water to be drawn from a lower point in the well. And I know there are rocks, mud etc at the bottom.

Am I being overly cautious/worried? Changing two things in a system at once, in ANY system, means you cannot know as well what is causing a failure, if it occurs. On the other hand, its already failing.....

Thanks -- I wrote quite the tome here, but figured the more info the better.

 

[Valveman]

The 4" pipe should be fine for a flow inducer. It is a tight fit, but that is a good thing. The 5" flow inducer is fine and the slower velocity will prevent sand from rising to the pump intake with the water. Only having 4' of water in the well to work with is the main problem. If you make a flow inducer a foot or two longer and stick out below the motor, the velocity in that 4" or 5" empty pipe is certainly slow enough that sand cannot come up to the pump and just settles down to the bottom. If you pump sediment though the plastic CSV125 valves they will start leaking. But the CSV1A and all our other models are designed to handle sand and debris.

The flow inducer does pick up from the bottom instead of the side of the pump/motor. This actually keeps the sand from collecting around the motor below the pump intake, which will rat hole and burn up a motor quickly. If the well makes sand it is better to pump it than let it settle around the motor like without a flow inducer.

Using a Cycle Stop Valve to stop the pump from cycling on/off also keeps the well from being surged up and down, which in itself can greatly help with a sand problem.

Sounds like what you need is a Cycle Sensor to shut the pump off when it runs out of water as that will also quickly burn up the pump.

 

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[cdherman]

The 4" pipe should be fine for a flow inducer. It is a tight fit, but that is a good thing. The 5" flow inducer is fine and the slower velocity will prevent sand from rising to the pump intake with the water. Only having 4' of water in the well to work with is the main problem. If you make a flow inducer a foot or two longer and stick out below the motor, the velocity in that 4" or 5" empty pipe is certainly slow enough that sand cannot come up to the pump and just settles down to the bottom. If you pump sediment though the plastic CSV125 valves they will start leaking. But the CSV1A and all our other models are designed to handle sand and debris.

The flow inducer does pick up from the bottom instead of the side of the pump/motor. This actually keeps the sand from collecting around the motor below the pump intake, which will rat hole and burn up a motor quickly. If the well makes sand it is better to pump it than let it settle around the motor like without a flow inducer.

Using a Cycle Stop Valve to stop the pump from cycling on/off also keeps the well from being surged up and down, which in itself can greatly help with a sand problem.

Sounds like what you need is a Cycle Sensor to shut the pump off when it runs out of water as that will also quickly burn up the pump.

Ok, good information. No sand -- the rocks are chalk/very soft limestone. The other debris is actually clay. This region of western KS is beyond the Ogalla aquifer (just over the eastern edge, to the east) and instead sits over highly eroded chalk/limestone hills that were left behind by the inland sea long ago. The highly eroded landscape no doubt had low spots and dry streams. THEN at the end of the last ice age, it was blanketed with wind blown loess soil. So the current landscape does not really reflect what's underneath -- and hitting a subterranean stream of water is rather much luck (though the well was indeed "witched" at the time it was drilled)

Not sure a cycle sensor is needed -- the well is in flowing water, so I think what is happening is the pump draws down till it sucks some air, which then causes it to temporarily pump much less water. And then the water rushes back in fast enough that the pump fills again with water and start pumping too fast yet again. It runs constantly -- not switching on and off, but you can hear the variation and the flow from the frost free hydrant next to the well varies in pressure wildly when this is happening.

I am nearly certain that a CSV valve is needed. But the quote above from the installation instructions got me worried.

Interesting thoughts about extending the flow inducer below the pump. What would happen if I drilled holes in the end below the pump? Some large holes at the bottom, and then progressively smaller as I approach the motor? And even crazier, since the bottom of the well has clay/mud/rocks. -- how about I cap the flow inducer on the bottom and force the water in from the sides?

I will attached a pic of the 4" pipe. My bro says the clearance is like 7/16" and not all the way around. Really OK?

 

[Valveman]

Yeah that is plenty of room for about 60 GPM to pass. Doesn't take as much as you think.

Even though the well pump may not completely stop pumping water, the amps will be bouncing up and down. The pump surging when being staved for water caused it to load and unload the impellers. This will eventually break the pump shaft or strip the splines on the motor coupling. It is best to restrict the flow so the pump does not surge.

 

[cdherman]

OK, the weather was at least passable (28 as opposed to 14) so we finally put the camera down the well. Figured we should wee what the baseline is first. Things were fine -- pump not rapid cycling.

At 40' there is water. The perforated casing starts a good deal higher than that.

At 41' 6'" is the top of the pump.

At 43' 6" is the bottom of the pump

At 43' 9" is the mud layer of the well.

We started pumping at 12 gpm from the adjacent frost free hydrant, roughly measured with a 5 gallon bucket and a timer. The water level fell about a foot quickly, then continued to slowly fall over about 25 minutes. I'd guess about 300 gallons pumped. We were getting cold. The pump was obviously NOT sucking air -- water level had reached the top of the pump at 25 min, 1.5' fall in total. The pressure gauge at the small pressure tank (?? 2 gallon), stabilized at 34 PSI -- right at 41.5" above water level. 1/2 hp Pump ran constantly.

We then throttled the flow back to around 4 gpm. The pump cut out at 53 psi. The water level rose pretty rapidly after the pump stopped, though not all the way back to 40' immediately. Water cont to run at around 4 gpm. At 31 psi the pressure switch cut in and the pump came on. At 76 seconds it cut back out at 53 psi. There is a second pressure tank 100 feet or so away. I think that explains partly how long it took to refill a 2 gallon pressure tank ie some water is flowing back and forth to the larger distant pressure tank.

I stupidly did NOT time how long the pump is OFF at 4 gpm. we let if cycle for a while. At 4 gpm water level stabilizes above the pump, obviously drawing down when the pump is on and rising when off.

I then cut power and drained the system of pressure and checked the small pressure tank pressure --- 28 psi.

So my pressure cut out was only slightly above the 50 psi valve we bought. Is the CSV125-1 going to work, or will I need to run higher pressure cut out? Obviously the pressure gauge at the pressure switch, after 6" of 3/4" flexible line to the pressure tank and another 3' of 3/8 line to the pressure switch, will be lagging. So the pressure say 8 feet down (6 feet to frost free, plus two more feet lower per CSV installation instructions) will be quite a lot higher. But high enough to lengthen the cycle appreciably????

In the end, we did nothing. It was cold and everything was working. I left the camera behind and my bother plans to drop the camera down the well the next time things STOP working.

Based on the 3" of water between the bottom of the pump and the mud, a flow inducer cannot be extended below the pump unless we raise the pump.

I also performed an "accidental" test of unknown outcome -- I turned the pump back on from the breaker, around 200 ft away and went in the house for coffee. I had forgotten the wide open hydrant (from draining the system to check pressure tank pressure). I am guessing we drank coffee for 45 minutes. Warmed up. Brainstormed. Went back out and stopped at breaker again, stopped power and walked to the well. JAW DROPS when I see the open hydrant. Of course nothing is running since I had thrown the breaker. We finish buttoning up the well, turn power back on and all was fine. BUT later we had several air burps at high points (kitchen sink, most distant toilet). So I think somewhere after 25 min of run time and before say 45 min, I did manage to suck some air.

We are really contemplating a proper well house. We could install a better pressure tank and get rid of the distant one. We could install a pump saver controller to keep errant excessive flow situations from damaging the pump. I think we will do the CSV125-1 as well, depending on any comments this post generates. Flow inducer may be on hold.

 

[Reach4]

Removing mud at the bottom could be worthwhile.

 

[cdherman]

Removing mud at the bottom could be worthwhile.

How? Seriously. Are there methods? So, the mud (not organic matter at all) is actually more clay -- super sticky. And mixed in are chunks of chalk/limestone. And the whole works is sitting on a limestone bed a few feet at most lower. I have seen sand buckets used. 20 years ago when they drilled this well, they jerry rigged a 10" post hole auger onto the well drill and brought up a fair bit of clay and rocks. But they could never get the casing much deeper. (not sure if they were pulling the post hole auger through the casing or just the uncased bore.....)

We would drill a new well, $$,$$$ be damned. But this is dry country. We have this moving deep water -- probably not a sheet, but a narrow stream. My great grandfather hand dug (with great luck I think) the first well and that well made it 100 years -- you could stand in the bottom of the well in moving water.. And it failed not for lack of water, but the chalk stones they used to line it, eroded and started to cave into the shaft.......

Thanks for reading. Like most difficult problems, there are probably more than one errors and barriers at play....

 

[Reach4]

I am not a pro, and I have not worked on a well as such.

With a 5 inch well, one technique is to put a pipe hooked to a big engine driven compressor down the well. Shoot the air down, and up comes a geyser of mud and water. There are impressive videos.

With a 12 inch well, I don't know how you would do that. There are special buckets made to pick up mud at the bottom. "bailer"

Bailing mud out of a well

I am going to need to bail out my well down to 485' from where the pump sits at 385' why it wasnt set at the bottom is up for debate. The 1 hp pump should be able to handle the additional depth without issue. It was likely a cheap out thing with the original installer, and it worked for 20...

terrylove.com

I would also wonder if you could lower a submersible "trash pump" or "mud pump". https://www.tsurumipump.com/pumps/hs-series looks interesting. If you think that sounds good, search around. Maybe call a seller and ask.

 

[Valveman]

Even when installed 8' below ground, you will need to set the pressure switch up to about 35/55 to make the 50 PSI cycle Stop Valve work. With the switch turned up higher than 50 PSI, the CSV will not let the pump cycle on/off while using 4 GPM as you were.

With an 8" suction bailer that works like a syringe, I could bail out the muck down to the hard stuff. You can also blow out the muck, it just takes a larger compressor for 12" casing than for smaller casing.

Might also consider a two pipe deep well jet pump. With the foot valve set a few inches off the bottom you would have much more water to work with than with the submersible. You could also get one of those submersibles with a bottom intake made for cisterns. But the motor on top type construction is one reason they don't last very long.

 

[cdherman]

Even when installed 8' below ground, you will need to set the pressure switch up to about 35/55 to make the 50 PSI cycle Stop Valve work. With the switch turned up higher than 50 PSI, the CSV will not let the pump cycle on/off while using 4 GPM as you were.

With an 8" suction bailer that works like a syringe, I could bail out the muck down to the hard stuff. You can also blow out the muck, it just takes a larger compressor for 12" casing than for smaller casing.

Might also consider a two pipe deep well jet pump. With the foot valve set a few inches off the bottom you would have much more water to work with than with the submersible. You could also get one of those submersibles with a bottom intake made for cisterns. But the motor on top type construction is one reason they don't last very long.

The original hand dug well never worked with a submersible either -- used a jet pump there. It had only about 18" of flowing water. A jet pump pretty much requires a well house/pit as well, if I am correct. Which I think we have decided to do.

Problem is that the "muck" at the bottom is really a mixture of clay and rocks. Nothing is entering the well. Its the same stuff that was there when the well was dug. They sent a 10" post hole augur down and got wads of clay and rock out. They drilled the new well with some sort of "hydro" process where water is pump down the tube and lifts the mud out as the well is drilled. This works since the soil is a consistent layer of "loess" all the way down to bedrock. Problem is that when the bit collapsed into this void of flowing water, there was a bunch of mud and clay still in the shaft and it all dropped into whatever subterranean space was down there. And they had no way of getting it out.

Good to understand the pressure switch settings I get it now -- so long as demand is above 1 gpm and the pressure switch is set to say 55 psi, the pump will just keep pumping because the pressure switch will only see 50 psi. Under 1 gpm the valve will emit more water than is being demanded and the pressure will finally rise and cut off the pump.

 

[Valveman]

Even though nothing is entering the well down there, cleaning out the muck and getting it deeper just gives a bigger sump for the pump to work from. Drilling with mud is common. But they do loose circulation when they hit a void like that. Not an easy way to clean it out but an extra foot or two would help a lot.

As far as the CSV, yeah you got it now.

 

[cdherman]

Even though nothing is entering the well down there, cleaning out the muck and getting it deeper just gives a bigger sump for the pump to work from. Drilling with mud is common. But they do loose circulation when they hit a void like that. Not an easy way to clean it out but an extra foot or two would help a lot.

As far as the CSV, yeah you got it now.

Too bad Lubbock is not a touch closer..... I'd hire your with your 8" vacuum sweeper. I've been toying with buying a few more lengths of fiberglass chimney cleaning rod (already have 24') so I could probe the muck. If its 6" of muck, then its not worth trying to remove it. If is 24" then maybe. That make any sense?