High GPM Pump In Low Producing Deep Well

[Arizona Chris]

First time posting on this site/forum. I've been reading A LOT on here, and have already gained a mountain of information that I otherwise could not have learned. I'm especially impressed with the knowledge of Valveman. Please feel free to chime in if you are available.

I'm brand new to wells and pumps and don't know much, but I know my way around other trades. My wife and I have a large property in Northern Arizona that I've been excavating, and building on for about 3 years. We drilled 2 wells last year and got our butts handed to us. I'm sure most of you can imagine how much money we watched evaporate into thin air.

Long story short we have a 185' well in solid granite that produces a mouth watering quart a minute (and is at risk of collapsing just below the steel casing), and a 485' well, also in solid granite, that produces a glorious pint a minute! This 485' well is the one I'll be inquiring about today.

After several months of licking my wounds (and paying the bill), I've decided I'd like to see if I can put together an above ground storage system where I can pump up several hundred gallons of water once a week or so... no pressure tank, just straight into storage. Both wells are full, and I just need to measure the recovery rate over a few weeks to better decide if I want to invest amymore money into this.

So, without further delay, here's what I'm thinking, and what my inquiries from all you pros are.

Well info:
485' deep
Static level 28'
Drawdown 442'
6" borehole
Storage tank would be right by the well head, and probably another 10' in elevation.

I've got 500' of 1" 250 PSI poly and 500' of #10.

I've been checking out some Sta Rite and RPS pumps (I'm liking the 1.5HP 7GPM Sta Rite and the 1.5HP 07RPS15). I'm open to any other suggestions on brands, of course.

However, before investing $5-8K in a nice pump & storage tank, as well as bringing 240 down to the well head, I'm thinking I'd like to drop a cheap Chinese pump down the 485' well to measure how it produces/recovers over a few weeks. I have plenty of space and the ability to easily drop and pull up a pump, so doing a test run is easy enough for me. However, there aren't many good throw away options for my depth... there is a cheap 3HP 37 GPM piece of junk from Home Depot (more on that below) that says it can do over 600' head. I'm thinking this could be my test monkey. If this all checks out, I think the final goal is to have a pump that has a higher(ish) GPM so that the process of pumping up 500 - 600 gallons once every week or two can go relatviely quick. Is this reasonable, or insanely stupid?

Regarding the cheap Chinese pump above: I'm going to set the pump at 470'. It appears that at this depth it will pump around 17 GPM, which sounds lovely, but in reality I believe is too much for the 1" poly. It got me pondering... Either A) I have to make a leap of faith and invest in a nice pump from the get go, or B) find a way to alter the flow of this cheap test pump. It appears that I can possibly use a CSV to tamp down the power of the pump, but in doing so, the CSV will create more back pressure on the piping and check valve. Is that a thing, and would it exceed 250 PSI? Again, feel free to let me know if my idea is insanely stupid.

Lastly, I've read in some other threads where Valveman has stated his preference for not having a second check valve in the mix... and that makes sense to me... Is that still the current thing? Or, if I should have a second check valve, should it be installed just above the pump? Will the backflow pressure at my depth exceed the max PSI of the check valve? (I think the valve is rated at 200 PSI)

I'm open to any and all suggestions. As I said, just trying to get a feel on whether or not my well is going to produce on a regualr basis, and considering the money I've already lost, I'd like to get a feel for it as cheap as possible.

Thank you, all!
Chris

 

[Valveman]

Sorry for your problems. As an old well driller there is nothing I hate worse than drilling a dry well. It cost more than drilling a good producer, and the customer is never happy. But we have no control over what Mother Nature puts underground in that exact 6" or 8" diameter spot. But it sounds like you may have a 1000 gallons a day or so, which can supply 2-3 houses if needed.

With a draw down of 442' and static at 28', the well itself is a 600 gallon cistern. It is just a matter of how quickly it recovers. And it doesn't have to recover all the way up to 28'. Keeping the well pulled down will decrease the down hole pressure and allow more water to flow into the well than when it is full to 28'. I would use a Cycle Senor with a restart setting of 3-5 hours. As long as the pump will run for a minute or two each times it starts, the recovery or off time is long enough. I would even use a ball valve and restrict the pump to like 2 GPM, to make it run for a minute or two if needed. Keeping the well pulled down and not let it recover to 28' will make it draw in much more water.

Yes, that 3HP pump for 160 bucks would make a good test pump. Might even just leave it in there with the ball valve restricting it as needed. It may last as long as any brand name pump. However, even though it says 3HP it is only 2200W, which is really only a 1.5HP load. Deceptive advertising. But that is good as it will work on your #10 wire. With a flow inducer sleeve that pump could run at 1-2 GPM for many years. Probably doesn't have a good check valve though. And yes, one check valve at the pump is the only one needed. But you can add a second at the pump in case the one on the pump is not of good quality.

You will still need a cistern and booster pump to be able to utilize storage over long periods of time.

Cycle Sensor Pump Monitor – Cycle Stop Valves, Inc

Buy It! Interactive Animation General Information Specifications Wiring Diagram Installation Instructions Installation Video Troubleshooting

cyclestopvalves.com

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Arizona Chris]

Valveman! The myth, the legend. Just the guy I was hoping to hear from!

Thanks for the reply. Great info, and straight to the point. Agreed on the deceptive advertising. Makes perfect sense that this cheap pump is more like 1.5HP. I will indeed explore the Cycle Sensor and ball valve. Seems to be a promising move. I also like the tip on keeping the well drawn down.

BIG thanks for all of this info, especially the link to the Cycle Sensor and the diagrams. Very helpful!

 

[Bannerman]

I will indeed explore the Cycle Sensor and ball valve.

Don't forget about the Cycle Stop Valve PK1A Pside-Kick kit for the pump to supply pressurized flow from the cistern to your home's plumbing system.

PK1A Kit

 

[Arizona Chris]

Thank you, Bannerman. Noted.

One other question for you seasoned pros: Thoughts on 2 wire vs 3 wire? I currently have enough #10 to run 3 wire setup. The cheap HD test pump comes in either configuration, both 230v. However, if all this works, and I decide to invest in a better pump, I'm seeing other brands having both options. I've read the pros and cons on each config, but can't quite come to a conclusion. Voltage drop is certainly a concern at my depth, but I'm not all that concerned about it with my calculations running #10. It also appears that 1.5HP is the max for a 2 wire setup, and I believe that is the most I would ever install for this well. Thoughts?

 

[Arizona Chris]

I ended up going with the Sta-Rite 1.5HP 3 wire pump, and decided against the cheap Chinese pump. I got a Franklin control box to go with it. I matched up the specs, so hope it all works. I just sent a message on your website about the Cycle Sensor. I think I'd like to add it to my setup. Wondering if you sell the sensor by itself, and if I can install it inside the Franklin control box.

 

[Reach4]

I think I would have opted for the 1 HP. The flow would diminish as you were ready to run out of water, but would provide full flow most of the time. I don't know if you should have a Dole valve. It says something that it shows numbers at 20 ft and 40 psi, rather than a dash. So I tend to think not needed.

 

[Arizona Chris]

I think I would have opted for the 1 HP. The flow would diminish as you were ready to run out of water, but would provide full flow most of the time. I don't know if you should have a Dole valve. It says something that it shows numbers at 20 ft and 40 psi, rather than a dash. So I tend to think not needed.

View attachment 103874

Thanks Reach4. I did consider the 1HP, and hopefully I didn't over do it with the 1.5. I did kick the dole valve / ball valve idea to the curb when I switched pumps, because it appears the flow on the pump I bought won't be as high as the test pump I was looking at. Who knows though what the cheap pump's flow really is, as Valveman pointed out, deceptive marketing is likely at play there.

 

[Valveman]

Technically 745 watts is 1HP. So they can say 2200 watts is 3HP. But submersible pumps usually work at like a 1.65 service factor which makes a 3HP 3350 watts. Which GPM series pump did you get. It may still need a Dole valve with a static at 28'. The 3 wire with a control box has more starting torque and will tolerate more cycling. But other than that, not much difference in a 2 wire. We sell the Cycle Sensor without the enclosure, but the clear cover enclosure is handy to be able to see the display without opening a box.

 

[Arizona Chris]

Technically 745 watts is 1HP. So they can say 2200 watts is 3HP. But submersible pumps usually work at like a 1.65 service factor which makes a 3HP 3350 watts. Which GPM series pump did you get. It may still need a Dole valve with a static at 28'. The 3 wire with a control box has more starting torque and will tolerate more cycling. But other than that, not much difference in a 2 wire. We sell the Cycle Sensor without the enclosure, but the clear cover enclosure is handy to be able to see the display without opening a box.

Yeah makes total sense. Not even surprised. I got the 7 GPM HS series 230, single phase. Okay, I understand about the clear cover being helpful. Let me think about which way I want to proceed on that. Do you have a link you can send me for the Cycle Sensor, without the enclosure?

 

[Arizona Chris]

S7P4HS15231​

 

[Valveman]

Yeah makes total sense. Not even surprised. I got the 7 GPM HS series 230, single phase. Okay, I understand about the clear cover being helpful. Let me think about which way I want to proceed on that. Do you have a link you can send me for the Cycle Sensor, without the enclosure?

Need to call for that one. But no problem.

 

[Arizona Chris]

Hi All, wanted to give an update as well as ask another question. Pump is installed. To recap: Well is 485’ with a static between 28’ and 35’ (I have two low producing wells and can’t remember which is which at the moment). I went with a 1.5 hp 7GPM Sta-rite single phase 3 wire pump, and a Franklin box. I also installed a Cycle Sensor. Pump is set at 470’ on 1” 250 PSI poly pipe. SS long barb fittings with triple SS clamps at Boshart brass pitless, and double SS clamps at pump. SS check valve at pump discharge. Pumping into a 3,000 gallon tank.

Getting ready to button up all my above ground electrical and plumbing and did a quick test this morning to make sure everything was working. Pumped up 2 gallons of water in about 10 seconds. Cycle Sensor was showing about 10.7 amps, which appears to be correct for my pump motor specs.

I’m going to draw down the well (thinking about 600 gallons) and would like to know recommendations on the “Current Adjust” setting onthe Cycle Sensor. Reading through the instructions and multiplying 10.7 by .95 gives me about 10 amps. Is this too high? Should I set it lower like 8 or 9 amps? Just want to make sure I don’t burn this motor out when I get close to running dry.

 

[Valveman]

Drawing 600 gallons for the well will drop the water level and the motor amps. At 10 amps the Cycle Sensor will shut the pump off before the well draws down very far. An 11 Amp, 1.5 HP pump will drop to about 5-6 amps when the well is dry. It will take a little trial and error as you can set the Cycle Sensor to shut off the pump before the water level drops all the way, or set it to only shut off when the amps are really low from pumping air.

 

[Arizona Chris]

Drawing 600 gallons for the well will drop the water level and the motor amps. At 10 amps the Cycle Sensor will shut the pump off before the well draws down very far. An 11 Amp, 1.5 HP pump will drop to about 5-6 amps when the well is dry. It will take a little trial and error as you can set the Cycle Sensor to shut off the pump before the water level drops all the way, or set it to only shut off when the amps are really low from pumping air.

Great, thanks for the pointers, Valveman. I will play around with it to find a good setting that works for me. Much appreciated.