Need Help ASAP regarding pipe coming from wall to shut off valve

[Jbru]

Hello all,

New home owner and decided to fix a leaky toilet shut off valve. I did research. Read the forums and watched multiple videos. I thought I could DIY, but just ran into a major issue.

So the old shut off valve appeared to be seated. I got a pipe cutter and cut it off. Left about 2 inches of the copper pipe protruding from wall.

I went to put my new 1/2" inlet angle shut off valve on, and lonand behold the shut off valve doesn't fit. It seems the inner diameter of the pipe is 1/2", but the outside of the pipe appears to have an extra sleeve of some sort?

So now I have my main water shut off and am open pipe. I can't get the 1/2" valve or end cap on. Please help!!!

If I need a plumber, is there a way to seal off the end in meantime so that I can have running water? Thanks you. Pictures linked below.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/Q3b6t3d

 

[Reach4]

Measure the OD of that outer piece with a digital caliper. Click Inbox, above.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jbru]

Measure the OD of that outer piece with a digital caliper. Click Inbox, above.

Thank you. I can run to the hardware store and grab one, but shut off valves come in specific sizes. So I don't think calipers will help me out. The pipe is 1/2". I think it's the chrome sleeve that's the problem

 

[Terry]

The chrome sleeve will need to be removed.
The new stop fits on the copper, not the sleeve.

 

[Reach4]

Seems worth checking, but yes, the valves have specific sizes.

Does that sleeve show signs of being soldered on? If so, can that be removed with enough heat? I don't know.

If you cut to the edge of the sleeve, is there enough copper to put a compression valve on? I also don't know that, but you might try posting that measurement too.

If you get a vernier caliper, those take some skill/study to read.

 

[Jbru]

Seems worth checking, but yes, the valves have specific sizes.

Does that sleeve show signs of being soldered on? If so, can that be removed with enough heat? I don't know.

If you cut to the edge of the sleeve, is there enough copper to put a compression valve on? I also don't know that, but you might try posting that measurement too.

If you get a vernier caliper, those take some skill/study to read.

There's about a half inch of the actual pipe sticking out of wall. I could use the pipe cutter to cut that deep, but then I wouldn't have enough pipe exposed to attach a shut off valve later on.

If I end up going that route, I'm guessing I'll need to have wall ripped open and more expensive repair.

Picture linked below. Thank you.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/2YYZwh6

 

[Jbru]

The chrome sleeve will need to be removed.
The new stop fits on the copper, not the sleeve.

Thanks Terry.

I don't have soldering skills. Is there anyway to cap the pipe? So that I have running water in the meantime. Or do I need a plumber ASAP? Thank you again

 

[Terry]

Thanks Terry.

I don't have soldering skills. Is there anyway to cap the pipe? So that I have running water in the meantime. Or do I need a plumber ASAP? Thank you again

You can open the wall up a bit to allow a compression nut that direction. Unless you can remove the chrome tube, you will need to cut behind it.

 

[Jbru]

You can open the wall up a bit to allow a compression nut that direction. Unless you can remove the chrome tube, you will need to cut behind it.

I thought so. With the sleeve only leaving about 1/2" of the actual pipe exposed. Would it be cheaper for me to call a plumber out to get the sleeve sweated off? If I cut behind the sleeve, I know the wall will have to be opened up eventually which I would think is more expensive.

 

[Reach4]

I expect your plumber could solder on something like this after grinding off the sleeve.
https://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves/supply-stops/copper/supply-stops-611-13-31.php

Less elegant would be to solder on a coupling and solder a pipe into the coupling.

How does such a chrome sleeve come to be put on anyway? Are those soldered at the wall side?

 

[Jbru]

I expect your plumber could solder on something like this after grinding off the sleeve.
https://www.dahlvalve.com/products/mini-ball-valves/supply-stops/copper/supply-stops-611-13-31.php

Less elegant would be to solder on a coupling and solder a pipe into the coupling.

How does such a chrome sleeve come to be put on anyway? Are those soldered at the wall side?

It's there any kind of shark bite/push connect I could use to extend the actual copper pipe after cutting it near the wall? I'm just worried if I cut it that close, I'm going to end up paying lots of $$$ later on

 

[Reach4]

It's there any kind of shark bite/push connect I could use to extend the actual copper pipe after cutting it near the wall? I'm just worried if I cut it that close, I'm going to end up paying lots of $$$ later on

https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/resources/pipe-insertion-depth-chart says that 0.95 inch insertion depth is needed for Sharkbite.

That does not allow space for a removal tool. So if using a Sharkbite, I would put on a valve rather than a coupling.

If you get the digital caliper I suggested, it also has a depth gauge.

Opening the wall some, as Terry suggested, and using a compression valve sounds good. A crow foot wrench might let you tighten the nut. Those nuts take more torque than you may think. Lube the threads with oil or grease to reduce the required wrench torque.

 

[Jbru]

https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/resources/pipe-insertion-depth-chart says that 0.95 inch insertion depth is needed for Sharkbite.

That does not allow space for a removal tool. So if using a Sharkbite, I would put on a valve rather than a coupling.

If you get the digital caliper I suggested, it also has a depth gauge.

I just cut the dry wall back a bit, and there's another sleeve on the other end. It looks like the copper pipe barely has half inch uncovered without sleeve.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/4gSQvZF

 

[wwhitney]

How about a picture of what you cut off? Any "before" pictures?

The "sleeve" in the wall is likely the end of the solder cup for the pipe segment of which you say you can see 1/2" uncovered. I.e. it's part of a tee or 90.

If you shine a light into the end of the pipe sticking out, does the pipe look continuous all the way to the wall? Or is there a discontinuity in the side wall? If the latter, the "sleeve" outside the wall is a copper coupling. In which case it should have some engraved markings and usually a dimple for an internal stop (although repair couplings come without a dimple). In that case your only good option is to desolder the coupling.

If the sleeve outside the wall was originally chrome plated, then it's surely just a decorative sleeve to make the pipe look chrome rather than copper. I'm not aware that those were ever sweated on, usually it's just a tight mechanical fit. In which case it should slide off, have you tried really hard to pull it off? If you cut through it with your pipe cutter, then the deformation of that cutting make have made it stuck.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jbru]

How about a picture of what you cut off? Any "before" pictures?

The "sleeve" in the wall is likely the end of the solder cup for the pipe segment of which you say you can see 1/2" uncovered. I.e. it's part of a tee or 90.

If you shine a line into the end of the pipe sticking out, does the pipe look continuous all the way to the wall? Or is there a discontinuity in the side wall? If the latter, the "sleeve" outside the wall is a copper coupling. In which case it should have some engraved markings and usually a dimple for an internal stop (although repair couplings come without a dimple). In that case your only good option is to desolder the coupling.

If the sleeve outside the wall was originally chrome plated, then it's surely just a decorative sleeve to make the pipe look chrome rather than copper. I'm not aware that those were ever sweated on, usually it's just a tight mechanical fit. In which case it should slide off, have you tried really hard to pull it off? If you cut through it with your pipe cutter, then the deformation of that cutting make have made it stuck.

Cheers, Wayne

Hey Wayne,

I can't get my head in a good position to see if pipe keeps going inside. Attaching some photos of the valve that was on. The pipe was twisted and the shut of was leaking. I just moved in a few weeks ago and was putting this diy project off until I felt comfortable. I was not prepared.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/8g9Z5jy

 

[wwhitney]

OK, here's my guess as to what's going on. This involves hypothesizing a type of supply stop I've not seen before, but my experience is not so broad. Hopefully someone with more experience can confirm whether a product like this exists or not.

So I zoomed in on your photo of the end of the stub from the wall with the measuring tape. Using a clear ruler against the screen with your measuring tape as a reference, I get that the ID of the assembly is 1/2", the OD is 13/16", and I plausibly see a discontinuity in the wall at a diameter of 5/8". So that would all be consistent with a 1/32" wall sleeve of ID 5/8" over standard 1/2" copper pipe with OD of 5/8".

Now looking at your valve pictures, I notice that the end looks similar to the wall, but at the bottom of the interior it looks like there's a transition 1/4" or so inside, as the interior suddenly gets black rather than fading into black. Plus the pipe is twisted farther down.

So I'm guessing that what you had was a sweat end supply stop with a long chromed thin walled inlet sized as a slip coupling that was soldered at the end near the wall. Since the stop inlet was thin walled, when the stop froze up, someone actually deformed the stop inlet trying to turn the stop (or maybe they were just turning it the wrong way).

You could confirm this theory in a couple ways. With a light, or a pinky, or a small rigid wire probe with a little hook in the end, check that the ID of the cut off stop increases just a short distance inside the inlet pipe. Also check that the pipe sticking out of the wall seems to have a smooth inside surface without any joints. Lastly you could use a nylon scrubby or sand paper to remove the paint from the 1/2" of pipe visible at the wall. You should find signs of solder being applied both to the solder cup in the wall, and the end of the chromed sleeve.

If the above is correct, then the only reasonable option is to desolder the sleeve, then you can clean up the pipe stub for your compression stop. Or possibly desolder at the tee and solder in a new pipe stub.

A less efficient solution is to open up the drywall, say at least 6" wide and 6" tall, although there's little downside to just opening it up one stud bay width (stop at the middle of the stud) and maybe 12" high. Then you can cut out whatever tee or elbow is there, assuming you have clean sound 1/2" copper pipe above and below (if a tee). That would let you install, e.g., a sharkbite slip tee and a new stub of 1/2" copper pipe.

As for temporarily plugging your wall stub, that's tricky. The OD of that sleeve does not appear to me to match any standard size for a cap that would go on the outside of the sleeve. There's this style of internal rubber plug, but I don't know if it would hold for the water pressure, or if you could find one in a timely fashion:

https://www.amazon.com/LASCO-13-1811-Copper-2-Inch-Diameter/dp/B00HYWEUJE

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JohnCT]

I just cut the dry wall back a bit, and there's another sleeve on the other end. It looks like the copper pipe barely has half inch uncovered without sleeve.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/4gSQvZF

I wonder if that sleeve you are seeing on the other end is actually a elbow or T. There might be a elbow inside the wall, a short piece of copper, and the chrome sleeve over it. You might have to open the wall to replace the short copper 1/2". If that's a short piece of copper, there's a good chance it will unsolder from inside the wall if you try to sweat off the outer sleeve.

John

 

[Jbru]

OK, here's my guess as to what's going on. This involves hypothesizing a type of supply stop I've not seen before, but my experience is not so broad. Hopefully someone with more experience can confirm whether a product like this exists or not.

So I zoomed in on your photo of the end of the stub from the wall with the measuring tape. Using a clear ruler against the screen with your measuring tape as a reference, I get that the ID of the assembly is 1/2", the OD is 13/16", and I plausibly see a discontinuity in the wall at a diameter of 5/8". So that would all be consistent with a 1/32" wall sleeve of ID 5/8" over standard 1/2" copper pipe with OD of 5/8".

Now looking at your valve pictures, I notice that the end looks similar to the wall, but at the bottom of the interior it looks like there's a transition 1/4" or so inside, as the interior suddenly gets black rather than fading into black. Plus the pipe is twisted farther down.

So I'm guessing that what you had was a sweat end supply stop with a long chromed thin walled inlet sized as a slip coupling that was soldered at the end near the wall. Since the stop inlet was thin walled, when the stop froze up, someone actually deformed the stop inlet trying to turn the stop (or maybe they were just turning it the wrong way).

You could confirm this theory in a couple ways. With a light, or a pinky, or a small rigid wire probe with a little hook in the end, check that the ID of the cut off stop increases just a short distance inside the inlet pipe. Also check that the pipe sticking out of the wall seems to have a smooth inside surface without any joints. Lastly you could use a nylon scrubby or sand paper to remove the paint from the 1/2" of pipe visible at the wall. You should find signs of solder being applied both to the solder cup in the wall, and the end of the chromed sleeve.

If the above is correct, then the only reasonable option is to desolder the sleeve, then you can clean up the pipe stub for your compression stop. Or possibly desolder at the tee and solder in a new pipe stub.

A less efficient solution is to open up the drywall, say at least 6" wide and 6" tall, although there's little downside to just opening it up one stud bay width (stop at the middle of the stud) and maybe 12" high. Then you can cut out whatever tee or elbow is there, assuming you have clean sound 1/2" copper pipe above and below (if a tee). That would let you install, e.g., a sharkbite slip tee and a new stub of 1/2" copper pipe.

As for temporarily plugging your wall stub, that's tricky. The OD of that sleeve does not appear to me to match any standard size for a cap that would go on the outside of the sleeve. There's this style of internal rubber plug, but I don't know if it would hold for the water pressure, or if you could find one in a timely fashion:

Cheers, Wayne

Yea I couldn't find anything to fit the outer diameter. And since there's only a out a 1/2" of the actual pipe not in a sleeve, I can't even cut it to put on a stop. No plumbers available near me. Looks like no water for the night

 

[wwhitney]

What's the length of the remaining sleeve? On the piece you cut off, can you get the inner pipe to rotate relative to the sleeve, or even remove it?

If the remaining sleeve is long (like 2" or more) and you are able to rotate the inner pipe out of the cut valve, then you have some chance of partially removing the sleeve. If it was soldered only at the wall end, I'm not sure how far up the solder would flow by capillary action. If you make a partial depth cut say 3/4" from the end of the current stub, and cut only the sleeve without cutting the pipe, and there's no solder in between, the cut sleeve should come off. Leaving you with a pipe segment to connect to or cap. Maybe you'd need 1" of exposed length, not sure.

A bit tricky so only try it if that all makes sense and sounds plausible.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Jbru]

What's the length of the remaining sleeve? On the piece you cut off, can you get the inner pipe to rotate relative to the sleeve, or even remove it?

If the remaining sleeve is long (like 2" or more) and you are able to rotate the inner pipe out of the cut valve, then you have some chance of partially removing the sleeve. If it was soldered only at the wall end, I'm not sure how far up the solder would flow by capillary action. If you make a partial depth cut say 3/4" from the end of the current stub, and cut only the sleeve without cutting the pipe, and there's no solder in between, the cut sleeve should come off. Leaving you with a pipe segment to connect to or cap. Maybe you'd need 1" of exposed length, not sure.

A bit tricky so only try it if that all makes sense and sounds plausible.

Cheers, Wayne

Thank you for the suggestion. I'm not skilled enough for that. I think it's time I just face facts and pay the piper (pun intended). Going to try and get a plumber out here tomorrow as soon as possible. In all the tutorials I read leading to today, none of the mentioned this being a problem. A few even said if it was a sweated pipe, you could just throw shark bite on top. Lesson learned