Low producing well storage tank

[TAHOE]

I have a well that runs out of water pretty quick, two quick showers or a med load of laundry and we are out for 30mins to an hour before recovery. I am actually hauling water in and storing in 2-55 gal drums in basement, using a 12v pump and garden hose to be able to do large loads of laundry and for water changes in my fish tanks.

The well is 50' drilled in 1989 and was at 8gpm when tested. A regeneration was done in 2005 and a SymCom pumpsaver plus was added due to burning up pumps from running dry, pump was raised to about 40' if I recall at that time and water tops out at about 11 or 12' I think so about a 30' column of water in a 6" casing. The Pump saver is set to restart every 15 or 20 mins and usually only has to run 1 or 2 cycles before pressure is re-established, we have a 30/50 switch with a 20 gal pressure tank.
So, I've been researching adding a 200 gal reserve tank in the basement with another booster pump. Fill the tank, use out of it, then let well pump fill tank as needed. I am a DIY'er so I have considered buying every thing separate and hooking it up, but this is new territory for me so need some advice.

I am leaning towards doing option number 2 from this thread I found. Leaving the current reserve tank setup, then adding tank after with a new pump to feed house.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....w-yield-well-pumping-into-storage-tank.62150/

I have looked at this setup, maybe kind of pricey ( ??) but it's a plug and play type setup. My only concern is using the manual float valve on the incoming line. I guess it works, but unsure.

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-4335-low-flow-water-package-w-200-gal-tank-and-fittings.aspx


If I was to piece together, then I am kind of in the dark ,but would like to save money if I can, we need a decent softener system also with an O/R as we cannot drink the water currently due to high mineral content. I believe its calcium from the limestone in out area. I am now hauling in drinking water for us and our farm animals. I've found some tanks for around $250-300, but I would have to drill holes and add bungs which is no biggey....expect that outlet bottom drain, how the heck you get that one in and tight? Fishtape? I'm used to doing bungs for my DIY pond drum filters and such, but I don't have 6' arms to reach inside a 8" hole.

Pumps? I am clueless on a decent pump that will work for this application other than those listed on the Fresh water systems site.

I also do not know much about using electric cutoff switch or how to wire it to shut pump off or where to buy a decent one.

So any advice would help. Can I piece this together to save money or should I just buy the Fresh water systems unit and be done.
Thanks

 

[Valveman]

Piecing it together will save you money AND get you a system that will last, which will save even more money. Those "packaged systems" are designed for the supply house to make money on a regular basis. They sell those Masscontrol or MQ type controllers so you have to buy a new pump every 2 to 5 years or so. They don't want you using a regular cast iron pump and a Cycle Stop Valve, because they wouldn't get another dime out of you for 30 years.

The Grundfos MQ is no longer on the market and it worked exactly like those Masscontrol things on the Davey pumps. Now Grundfos makes the Scala2, which is suppose to be better than the troublesome MQ. However, there is a person on this forum today with his second Scala2 failure, and they haven't been around but for a year or so. See this thread. https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/pump-recommendations.72493/

When you see "state of the art electronic controls", "tankless", or other catch phrases, just know that means most expensive and shortest lived.

And no you do not want a toilet type float valve on the storage tank. You will need a pump up float switch wired directly to the pump. The Symcom dry well protector should be good enough for the well pumping directly to the storage tank.

The drawing that you posted a link to has the wiring diagram for the float switch and using a Cycle Sensor to protect the pumps against a dry well and/or a dry storage tank condition. Here is the drawing again.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

For your tank shopping, read up on cone bottom tanks. They could allow easier draining of sediment.

Your second pump could be a jet pump, or it could be a 1/2 HP submersible in the tank. It seems to me that something like the Goulds 16se http://www.depcopump.com/datasheets...er_and_Effluent_Submersible_Tech_Brochure.pdf could be suitable, and it has a bottom inlet. You can also use pumps with mid inputs, and go tilted or even horizontal. For those, a flow inducer would be important.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah here is a drawing with a submersible instead of a jet. Forget about those bottom feed effluent type pumps, they don't hold up very well to daily use.

 

[TAHOE]

Thanks for the responses.

Valveman, Thanks for drawings.
I need to question, I do not have any type of relays in my system like in your schematic. I only have the line in/ line out on the reserve tank pressure switch and then my picture above of the pump saver controller.
How would I wire in a float cut off switch.


I also saw a video of a guy using a similar setup, but he had two float switches, one for fill and another on the bottom for a low water cutoff to prevent pump burnout in case of no water. I might be interested in doing that once I get moving.



I am wanting to do this basic setup below but using electrical cutoffs and possibly a submersible in tank, what size pressure tank would I need on the tank side to fill my needs? It would be a lot less work than trying to remove my current pressure tank and re-plumbing since the new storage tank will be on the other side of basement.








Does anyone have any recommendations on these float switches and a good pump, submersible or a jet?


.

 

[Valveman]

Here is a link to a relay that will work if it is a 230V motor.
https://www.grainger.com/product/5X...vice^c-plaid^81032003877-sku^5X848-adType^PLA

The Cycle Sensor will take the place of the lower float switch.
https://cpkits.com/collections/cycle-sensor-pump-monitors/products/cs1ph1-2hp230v

Here is a float switch that will work for the top.
https://www.grainger.com/product/DAYTON-Tether-Float-Switch-3BY85

The PK1A kit comes with a 4.5 gallon size pressure tank, which is all you need.
https://cpkits.com/collections/frontpage/products/custom-pk1a-pside-kick-kit

The pump could be a jet like the Goulds J5SH or a sub like a Goulds 10GS05.

 

[TAHOE]

Thanks for links.
I am researching tanks right now as I get time, then will move onto pumps and controls which will all be 120V.

 

[Valveman]

You need to find a storage tank local if you can. Freight adds up quickly. Maybe Tractor supply. Everything about pumps works better on 230V because it is half the amperage of 115V.

 

[TAHOE]

The closest tank I can find to fit my needs is a little over a 2 hr drive, but i am still looking. I have an old farmhouse, floor joist in the basement are at 84" and door way is a 32" so I am stuck with a 31"x72" tank. None of the farm stores or big box stores carry that size. By the time I take a day off work, 4-5 hrs to drive and gas money in my gas guzzler SUV, I can have one shipped to my work dock for around $110.

230V would be great, but my farm house has 2 extra additions built on, I have a 200 amp main and a 100 amp sub, both boxes are completely full for circuits. The only option I have is the 120V line that ran the old cistern pump which is right where I am putting the new tank and pump.
Gotta play the cards I am dealt, I had to install a junction box in the dryer circuit and run a line to garage so I could use my 220V welder and still need to figure out how to add my GCFI circuit for my outdoor pond I built.

 

[TAHOE]

I am now looking at a submersible pump.

What does the shroud or a flow inducer do? Would just a larger piece PVC work to slide pump into?

 

[Reach4]

I am now looking at a submersible pump.

What does the shroud or a flow inducer do? Would just a larger piece PVC work to slide pump into?

The flow inducer does a couple of things. The main thing is that it routes the water being sucked in past the motor, which cools the motor. It also causes the water to be drawn from below the pump rather than sucking on what could be uncased side of the well. So you avoid having a high velocity water movement right next to a possibly uncased well bore.

4 inch is better, because it routes the water closer to the motor.

 

[Valveman]

Maybe this will help.

 

[TAHOE]

So I think I've got the tank figured out, plan on going with a submersible 115V 10 gpm pump and a 14 gal pressure tank with a NC cutoff float switch for filling. I am on limited funds so for now I am just needing it to be up and running as I will be selling my other home which I am currently hauling supplemental water for laundry, livestock, etc. If it all works fine, once I sell house, I will invest in a CSV and possible a cycle sensor as a low water safety in tank.

A few issues that have came to mind...

A. All these float switches appear to use 16 or 18 gauge wires and they seem to splice into one leg of the pump which uses 12 gauge feed wire. The seems not safe to me even though they are rated for the pump. Should I use a relay even if float switch is rated for the load? Kind of like the pic above with teh 24V solenoid and Valve?
I have a Goulds 10GS05422C in the well.

B. I am planning on leaving old pressure tank on well pump. If I am pump into a non pressure tank, won't this basically negate the pressure tank/pressure switch? My pump saver and float switch would basically be controlling pump only?

C. I would like to have option to use Well pump on it's own separate of tank, I know I can use ball valve to separate each system, but is there a way to wire float switch to isolate it from controlling well pump?

D. Will need to to sanitize tank every so often even though water will be doing a regular turn over every couple days?

E. StaRite pumps, I've been reading a lot that the motor have went to aluminum wiring and a lot of failures. I was going to buy one as they are in my budget range, but now not so sure. If I have to go up considerably in price, I will just go with a decent jet pump with tank and be done. I know you get what you pay for, but as I stated, limited funds at the moment.


Thanks

 

[Reach4]

B. I am planning on leaving old pressure tank on well pump. If I am pump into a non pressure tank, won't this basically negate the pressure tank/pressure switch? My pump saver and float switch would basically be controlling pump only?

Yes.

C. I would like to have option to use Well pump on it's own separate of tank, I know I can use ball valve to separate each system, but is there a way to wire float switch to isolate it from controlling well pump?

A switch in series with the float switch would keep the float switch from turning on the pump. If you are to use the well pump with a pressure tank and switch, you should have a 44 gallon pressure tank if it was not using a CSV.

D. Will need to to sanitize tank every so often even though water will be doing a regular turn over every couple days?

I don't think so. Most bacteria are not harmful. I would keep people and animals and their outflows out of the tank after sanitizing.

You probably want to protect your tank from sun to prevent algae.

 

[Valveman]

The drawing above shows how to use the well pump directly for the house, or use the well to feed the storage tank and boost water to the house. You need the float switch to control a solenoid valve to fill the storage tank instead of directly turning the pump on/off.

 

[TAHOE]

Yes.

A switch in series with the float switch would keep the float switch from turning on the pump. If you are to use the well pump with a pressure tank and switch, you should have a 44 gallon pressure tank if it was not using a CSV.

My current setup is a 20 or 26 gal tank that's been going for years. The last receipt my mom has when they had it worked on was 2005 when the new pump and pump saver was installed. Now with the water tank, this setup will now only be to fill the water tank, but I want option to switch it to house.
Granted I am now just learning about the CSV and how it works so I may upgrade to one on both well pump and water tank pump once things get setup and I sell my other house freeing up funds.

I don't think so. Most bacteria are not harmful. I would keep people and animals and their outflows out of the tank after sanitizing.

You probably want to protect your tank from sun to prevent algae.

Tank will be in basement, black and no windows .

 

[TAHOE]

The drawing above shows how to use the well pump directly for the house, or use the well to feed the storage tank and boost water to the house. You need the float switch to control a solenoid valve to fill the storage tank instead of directly turning the pump on/off.

Okay, that answers my question. Thanks!

 

[TAHOE]

I've been cleaning out the old cistern system, here is a couple pics of the old pump. Motor still runs but it won't pump due all the rust and sediment, would be a neat project to find a pump head to fit it. Last time I remember it being used was maybe 1980. I do remember as a young boy helping dad shovel snow into the cistern during the 1978 Blizzard that hit the Midwest. With 5 women stuck in the house for several days, they ran the old well dry so dad did what he could. Anyway, here's the pics

Also, another question, would I need a check valve in between the tank and pump(decided to go with shallow well jet pump)? I plan on using a ball valve and union in case I need to remove pump, but pump will basically be at tank bottom level. I don't see the need to worry about it not getting water readily or losing prime.

 

[Valveman]

F&W is still in business. You can probably get a repair kit with a new impeller for that pump.

 

[LLigetfa]

would I need a check valve in between the tank and pump(decided to go with shallow well jet pump)?

Yes.
To play it safe, I would put a ZIP tie around the handle of the ballvalve to indicate it should be kept in the open position.