Layout lines on Ditra

[ShowerDude]

Jim wrong ! again you show us your lack of experience , specifically weep drains and why they are there. It is becoming a full time job just correcting your misinformation. But we always hear about what you do know. The manual to installing orange foam. Get educated on thinbed showers and flex flashing and try again. -redshoe

 

[Jadnashua]

Weep drains are used because in a conventional shower (or Noble's use of the drain connector), the waterproofing layer is beneath a mudbed (at least around the drain assembly). Tile and grout are not waterproof, so you need an alternate path for that moisture to escape...that's pretty basic, and yes, I've understood that for a very long time.

When using a surface membrane system as designed by Schluter, and expressed in B422 TCNA handbook...there are NO weepholes because the waterproof layer is immediately beneath the tile and continues to the drain with a bonded flange. Whether you use Nobles surface drain and bond to it or use their drain hat and use a conventional drain on top of it, is your choice, but the reason for the weep holes is the same as if you have a conventional preslope/liner/mudbed.

This video shows what I'm talking about...a hunk of deckmud around the drain that requires the weep holes because the tile and grout will allow it to get there. http://noblecompany.com/resources/category/tile-installation The Kerdi shower system has the entire shower waterproofed, and no secondary drain (weep holes) are required or wanted.

This shows how the Kerdi conversion drain goes in. Most pros, if they used this, would probably opt to do a mudbed, and if you did, you'd bond the thing almost as if you were using the pvc or abs cemented version. This video shows using the foam tray, but the main point of it is how to use the conversion drain.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ShowerDude]

Couple clean TS installs there! Jim is confused and causing confusion. Cant think outside the orange box syndrome.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Maybe some chromotherapy lighting.... this floating tub is almost done.

 

[Jadnashua]

I'm not confused...those last pictures show the shower ready for a flood test...when you get ready to tile it, you fill in that hole around the drain with deck mud. If your pan is over a subfloor, that pocket is 1.5" deep, not 3/4" as in the one shown, because it is likely a bonded mudbed over a slab.

So, Kerdi system...bonded membrane goes onto the flange of the drain and then you tile directly on top of it since it is flush with the rest of the shower pan.

On the Noble system, using their hat and clamping drain, you put a hunk of deckmud into that hole around the drain, protecting the weep holes because you must, and then you can add your tile.

How is that confused? Both of the videos I linked are from their respective websites on how to install their respective drains, although the Noble one is longer, and shows doing the walls after the drain is prepared.

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

 

[Jadnashua]

We were talking about the clamping drain conversion...Noble's thinbed drains clamp the membrane at the top of the pan level, and are similar to Schluter's, except for how you make the seal.

With their clamping drain version, your membrane is in the order of the depth of the drain hats, either 3/4" for a bonded mudbed, or 1.5" for a floating one on a subfloor when you use their deckmud tool for your sloped mudbed. Those are the ones that require you to fill that hole up with deckmud after connecting at the clamping ring, maintain the weep holes, and I think Schluter's conversion drain is better because you do not have that mudbed on top of your membrane right at the drain.

So, do not mix apples and oranges...John was promoting the ability to use their drain hat membrane with a clamping drain and how wonderful it is. IF you change the clamping drain, and use their thinbed method and drain assembly, the drain is different, and similar to Schluter's, except in keeping with their bonding methodology which varies between the two.

There's no way you'd fill that hole with thinset 3/4 or 1.5" thick and maintain the weepholes, or abide by any thinset manufacturer's guidelines. And, that is what is shown on their video I linked to from the Noble Company website.

So, no, I'm not confused unless the video they chose to showcase is totally wrong. Two different techniques, different drains with Noble's system. Schluter's always looks the same and is bonded to the membrane the same, whether you use a cemented in drain, or you convert from a conventional clamping drain.

 

[Jadnashua]

The video on the Noble website shows them installing a complete conventional clamping mudbed drain using their drain flashing, with the rest of the shower sealed with NobleTS. One of you compaining had said, and had others, that sometimes you cannot change the existing clamping drain and can't get them to spring for a new one. This means that they are going to end up with a hunk of deckmud around the clamping drain body with no surface waterproofing around that drain. Now, if you opt to spend the money for their thinbed drain, yes, you get the topical waterproofing, since the wide flange of the drain accommodates it at the top of the opening, and you still have weep holes beneath...so in that matter, they are quite similar. Schluter chooses to make the connection to the drain watertight beneath the top surface, and testing and the plumbing code says it works fine. WHen you use their clamping drain adapter, it seals beneath to the newly installed adapter ring, similar to a waxless seal on a toilet from Fernco, or Fluidmaster. The entire remaining drain is one piece and has the membrane bonded to it directing any water on top of the waterproof membrane into the fully sealed drain funnel.

And, I mentioned using that alternative drain would produce very similar results, but I wasn't the one to bring up not wanting to spend the money on a new drain assembly.

It's obvious none of you chastising me watched the Noble Company video I linked to, which shows what I mean. Depending on where the mudbed is, bonded or reinforced, that hunk of deckmud on top of the membrane around the drain using a conventional drain body will be either 3/4 or 1.5" thick, and fairly large around. Personally, I think that it would be foolish to use that method, but others had said they did not want to spend money on a new drain assembly...so, you get what you get. SPend a bit more, and use a new drain body, and you get your surface bonded drain, just like you always do with the Schluter system. But, if you want to cut corners, and save a few pennies, you get that hunk of deckmud there by your drain.

John was complaining about the prices...the Noble thinbed drain lists for $95. The Schluter conversion drain (for residential use) lists for $126.80, but in addition to the drain, includes a tube of KerdiFix, inside corners, outside corners, a valve body seal, and a shower head seal (and, a set of color instructions and a DVD with videos showing you how to do it). Adding those to the cost of the Noble thinbed drain, and theirs costs about the same, if not more. So, again, who doesn't have a clue?

 

[Jadnashua]

Membrane Thickness - Good and Bad

Generally, the thicker the membrane, the better the perm rating which is critical in a steam shower. Industry standards call for the perm rating for a residential shower to be below 1.0, and below 0.5 for a commercial unit. There's a difference between the 'system' perm rating once everything is installed and the actual membrane's perm rating. Two players being discussed here are from Noble and Schluter. NobleTS is 0.030" thick (30 mils) and has a perm rating of 0.15. Schluter has two different thicknesses available, but if we're calling for commercial use, then you'd need to use KerdiDS which is 0.020" thick (20 mils) and has a perm rating of 0.18. If you look at the assembled perm rating Schluter gives, the assembly (all joints, seals, holes, etc., properly flashed per their instructions), the value is higher, but those are somewhat dependent on installer skill. For practical purposes, the difference is in the noise except for the thickness issue which I'll comment on next.

If you've ever tried to tear either one of the Kerdi or NobleTS membranes, its pretty tough. Now, install them properly on a rigid backer or mortar pan, and they're not something you're likely to tear off once set (and a dryset mortar will set a lot faster than a modified). Drop something sharp on either one, and you'll likely poke a hole. The difference may be the type of backer board you used, but in either case, you'll have a hole to repair - one may end up bigger than the other, but a hole is still a hole.

The vast majority of people using this website are DIY'ers asking questions on how do they do something...not a pro with multiple subs doing all sorts of other stuff...it's an individual trying to save some money doing an upgrade to his home. To him, doing it right is important...thickness in that aspect is mostly a mute point until you analyze it a bit more.

But, let's look at this a little more when it comes to seaming either of these two products...each one requires at least a 2" overlap of any seam. You can overlap them that amount, or butt them and use a separate band. In any simple seam, you'll have at least two layers of the material, or if you look at it in a different manner, one layer (plus sealant) hump where the materials are joined.

Now, think about a corner. No matter how you do it, you're going to have at least some area in that corner that has three layers (or more) of material, or at least two above your baseline.

This is where material thickness can be an issue. Since this site is geared towards homeowners, they probably wouldn't be trying to meet commercial standards for a steam shower. So, the more commonly used version of Schluter's membranes is Kerdi, which is 0.008" thick (or 8 mils). Schluter also has a seaming tape available in several widths (the more normally used version is 5" wide to give you some leeway when trying to achieve the required 2" minimum overlap), but it is 0.005" thick (or 5 mils).

So, at least somewhere in a corner with NobleTS, you're going to have 0.060" hump. If you use Schluter's preformed corners, one of those plus a layer of Kerdiband, and your hump will be 0.010" high. Now, this is without adding in the required sealant material. For this discussion, we'll say that those layers are the same thickness - I have my thoughts on which would end up being thicker, but since I can't measure, we'll say they're the same, and we'll say those two layers of sealant (on Kerdi, it's thinset; on NobleTS, it's one of two things, one you trowel on like thinset, the other you squeeze out beads with a caulking gun) are 0.005" thick, for a total of 0.010" (or 10 mils more). That makes the NobleTS hump 70 mils high, and the Kerdi corner hump 20 mils high.

The ANSI specs for a tiling surface call for it to be within 1/4" over 10' and no more than 1/16" in a foot (or 62.5mils). So, let's say your corner is out the max in the worst way, now, your tiling surface after the corner with NobleTS is over twice the allowed amount. With the Kerdi corner, you've only made it worse by 20 mils, verses 70 mils.

Thicker comes with both benefits and deficiencies. For a DIY'er, trying to get their tile to lay flat, thinner is better even if both systems could exceed the spec for a tiled surface in a corner. Trying to get the required 2" overlap over your curb, with the extra corners, and the cuts you must make can make it even worse.

Are these issues for a pro on a complex worksite? Is thicker really all that much better? They seem to scream that at me, so I'll give it a maybe. In a home, when a DIY'er is the only one performing the work which is the vast majority of people that come to this website, probably doesn't care anything except is it waterproof (either system will be if you can follow instructions) and how do my tile look. It will be harder with the thicker material and the higher buildup IMHO.

 

[Jadnashua]

Still trying to figure out what the photos are doing in such a BS thread ?

Or, why John brought up NobleTS and half the other unrelated info he brought into the thread which started out on a totally different topic...

Has anyone who has been criticizing actually looked at the Noble Company video they show you when you get info on NobleTS showers that I linked to? It shows exactly what I'm talking about...they show installing a drain the same way it was done with Schluter prior to their introduction of the drain that brought about B422 in the TCNA handbook (in 2001). Now, others have copied and modified that concept and are calling it 'new'.

 

[Eurob]

Some of us don't really care to know the "S" literature -- IN and OUT -- , over and over . John is a stir pot guy -- LOL -- but with very good intentions , even if lots accuse him of wrong doing -- A Huge Change Was Observed In Watertightness recommendations -- .

John is flooding the net , like his showers , flood -- 5.4.h. Flood testing -- the hell out of anything . LOL -- nice signature to add --

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Jim , I think you can help with the "S" questions in here -- http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=112520 --

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

http://www.maxxi.co.th/media/catalo...6f/4/3/43963ded94957d88941e4ec5e63173e8_1.jpg

 

[ShowerDude]

John,

I am not sure Jim understands that Noblel TS can be used as a topical Thinbed system with the flex flashing .

Secondly that it can be used in a traditional preslope/liner/mud pan similar to some of your ACO jobs..where the TS is "under a standard deck mud pan'.

There really is no way for him to argue that it is not the superior Membrane regardless of how he spins it ( NOTICE I SAID MEMBRANE NOT TOTAL SYSTEM)


Once more IMO I and my clients like having the weep holes with the flex divot and still the benefits of a thinbed waterproofing, I have not had one flood test issue with this approach either ....

"Just one way of doing it" and very viable when the plumber has already installed the clamping drain flange flush to the substrate...which happens to me often.

Jims been hitting the Orange Julius smoothies and hes gotten what one might call an icecream headache, followed by confusion......not a great time to be posting Jim, maybe you need a dab of pucky?

-redshoe

 

[Jadnashua]

NobleTS is a reliable, useful membrane. It has one of the highest perm ratings available, and I've commented on that more than once. It is also one of the thickest out there which has both benefits and deficiencies (build-up in a corner, for example; once bonded to the surface, some say it is less likely to be torn, I do not know, but still question it). In a conventional shower, perm ratings are not considered particularly important as long as they meet industry standards for watertight (liquid, not vapor). The people who set the standards have said that for a residential steam shower, the perm rating must be below 1.0, and for a continuous use (typically commercial) it must be below 0.5. Both KerdiDS and NobleTS easily meet the continuous use perm rating (and their sheet perm ratings do not differ by much, assembly performance may have the edge with NobleTS, but rigid testing would have to be performed under controlled circumstances to prove it one way or the other - too many variables for a backyard comparison).

This forum is geared towards DIY'ers, not professionals, and I do not believe you'll see any non-pros called out to do commercial work...so, advice here is best served to support their needs. There are other forums where pros tend to gather to discuss some of their problems and questions. Some of the techniques and methods discussed there, often require a full understanding of the consequences and ramifications of deviating from the manufacturer's instructions or industry guidelines, and can easily be misunderstood or ignored by the DIY'er, especially if it is the first time he is attempting something. So, some of the discussions here are not very appropriate for the actual audience.

Noble Company posted a video on their shower page of their website showing how to build a shower with NObleTS. That is the one that I referenced, and the comments about the deckmud around the drain are based on that video. I also mentioned that they have surface bonded drains, similar to the Kerdi shower one, that would then provide the same functionality. If you're putting a mudbed over a subfloor, generally, it requires a fairly thick layer to stay together at the thinnest portion - i.e. over the drain. To provide that function, they offer their drain flange assemblies in 3/4 and 1.5" depths...the 3/4" one would allow for a bonded mudbed over a slab, the 1.5" one for over a subfloor. My point was, and is, if you used a normal mudbed over a subfloor, used the 1.5" drain flange, your drain assembly would need to project up at least that 1.5" (they call for stopping the mud in a ring around where the drain goes - all obvious if you watch the video I posted), and you SHOULD not fill that with thinset. Therefore, you end up with a hunk of deckmud, which also has a decent perk rate so that any moisture that gets there can reach the weep holes (otherwise, if you use thinset, even if there are pebbles, or their weep hole protector in there, capping it with a deep section of thinset will not allow it to drain much, or very fast and it will tend to stay wet longer). I suppose you could bastardize it and use surface liquid membrane on top of that, but unless you use their drain with a bonding flange, you'd only be bonding to the edge of the conventional drain, and that's not usually a very reliable connection. ANd, is yet one more product a DIY'er would have to buy, and could not use on the next job, like a pro would often do.

So, yes, there are other Noble (and probably other companies) drains you can use to avoid that. Yes, you can use a reinforced mortarbed instead of deckmud and probably get things thinner, but that is not what I was referencing based on the example Noble provides on their website of how to do it.

 

[Jadnashua]

I'm guessing it should not be used in a Kerdi DS Steam Shower unless it is used as extra protection over a KEerdi DS to Kerdi DS seam.

Am I wrong in my thinking here.

Yes, you're wrong in your thinking...Kerdiband is only used over butted seams in a continuous use steam shower (and, if you wish, you can lap the sheets, a la NobleTS, with a 2" overlap and never use any of the seam material), and since it is then on top of the already compliant layer, only adds to it at that seam. While in a residential steam or regular shower, and Kerdi is being used, the band material can also be used to seam Kerdi, KerdiBoard edges, seams, or penetrations.

Anywhere you happen to use one of their corners, there will be at least two layers of the material, and sometimes three. Again, NobleTS will have similar overlaps and layer buildups (except that it is that much thicker).

 

[Jadnashua]

The story of me getting banned is growing old.

Simple question, John, what do you call it when they will no longer let you log in and post anything on their forum? I call it banned. When it occurred and why it occurred isn't the issue, but that you are not welcomed there, and cannot log in (unless you happen to lie and try to create a false user profile), is true, and has been for a fairly long time. That you don't agree with them, is obvious. That you still read a lot of posts over there, seems strange to me. If I hated the site and (some) of the people that post there, I would no longer keep that door open...sort of like pouring salt in the wound, I'd want to forget it.

In that post, I did give you a compliment - I said you can make some very nice looking showers, and that IMHO, I did not agree with some of your methods and practices. Just like you do not like me...the feeling is mutual.

 

[Eurob]

Looks like Jim is busy telling lies about me. Might be time to get that old hard drive fixed and go after rsomeomne for Libel comments. The story of me getting banned is growing old. Now Jim is telling the story somewhere where I can not leave a rebuttal. And since he is wrong and believing what people tell him he might be affecting my income.

I wonder why the personal comments are not addressed by mods , when clearly it is uncalled for . Just the mention of your site , a suggestion and there you are ......

So, basically, you can listen to John Whipple, who is, IMHO, kind of wacko (can make a beautiful looking shower, though - just don't always agree with what's under it), or you can believe nearly 30-years of successful implementation in the states using the install methods listed (introduced in the USA in 1987).

By no means am I saying that Ardex 8+9 is a bad product...it is good for what it does, it's just that for most people, it is an unnecessary additional cost and learning curve to master. It's my understanding that Ardex will take over the Schluter warranty when you use it (since it was not done per their instructions), at least in Canada (where John is from), but I do not know, nor have I looked, to see if they do that in the USA. And, an additional potential 'gotcha'...since the plumbing code approval was and is based on following the manufacturer's instructions, technically, what you put in in that manner no longer meets current plumbing codes. IMHO, it's not worth the hassle. Having an inspector fail you would not be the norm, but technically, he could. If there were even an issue, an expert was called, it could get nasty quickly. The odds of that happening are slim, but still a possibility.

What BS to promote -- an inspector to fail your installation when using a higher quality product to waterproof the seam and stop the capillary rise of water -- .


Don't worry John . You are a kinda wacko I like

Hats off to you , which brought the modification in the literature and recommendations from waterproofing products manufacturers , which now says ......

'' 5.4.h FLOOD TESTING:
Waterproofing installations should be flood tested to insure that they are watertight. ''

'' Q. What is a water test? How do I perform one on the Schluter-Shower System?
A. A water test is a quality control check performed on any shower installation before setting tile. It basically consists of stopping the waste line with a test plug and filling the base of the shower stall with water to check for leaks. If you are building a barrier-free shower, then you will need to provide a temporary dam (e.g., a 2x4 and silicone sealant) at the threshold. You can quickly check the test plug by filling the pipe and drain with water up to the height of the Schluter-KERDI-DRAIN integrated bonding flange (or a little below). If the plug is watertight, then you can continue filling the assembly. The water level is marked and the assembly is left for a specified amount of time (24 hours is typical). If there are no leaks, the shower passes. ''

 

[Jadnashua]

Like me bringing to the powers to be your content deletion here on Terry's forum. And the resulting loss of your moderator status.

Terry gave me moderator privileges one day without any instruction or prior notice, and never said why he removed them. I asked him for some guidelines one time, but never got any. I have no idea what posts I may have deleted of yours, or that I did, but over the time I did have that privilege, I used it to remove spam, people advertising stuff, or duplicate posts, or something totally off-topic for the thread in question (probably some of yours since you have no concept of keeping to the thread's OP subject).

So, what you're telling me is possible...if I had moderator privileges, I'd at least edit out personal attacks you seem to like to throw around. Terry, since he owns the site, does not have to tell why he does things - it's his prerogative how he runs his site. Personally, I think he lets stuff remain that should not ever have been posted, but it's his site. I stick around to learn and to help. I originally joined to ask some questions on a major remodel, and liked what I saw and stuck around...same at www.johnbridge.com. And, as I've said before, both John Bridge and Terry Love know each other, and for many years before JW, the people over there referred people here for plumbing and questions on installing things like a tub or their toilet in their remodel, and people here have referred specific tiling questions over there. JW is the one that seems to object to what has been a symbiotic relationship, and is using this forum as a showcase of his projects and concepts of what is right with the world. That I believe the manufacturers that spent years developing, testing, and getting their products certified for use understand them doesn't seem misguided in my mind. That I point out those differences is one of our areas of disagreements.

 

[Jadnashua]

What BS to promote -- an inspector to fail your installation when using a higher quality product to waterproof the seam and stop the capillary rise of water -- .

A Kerdi shower install has it's certification based on being installed per the manufacturer's instructions. IOW, it is no longer certified if it is not, or you get Schluter to give you individual permission to deviate. This is a quote from the ICC Schluter certification, ESR-2467, the basis of getting it approved for use:

5.0 CONDITIONS OF USE
The Schluter-Kerdi, Schluter-Ditra, and Schluter Ditra-XL membranes and accessories described in this report comply with, or are suitable alternatives to what is specified in those codes listed in Section 1.0 of this report subject to the following conditions:​

5.1 Installation must comply with this report, the manufacturer's published installation instructions, and the applicable code. In the event of a conflict between the manufacturer's published installation instructions and this report, this report governs.
​

IOW, if you do not follow the instructions, technically, you do not have a certification, and thus, the install is no longer in compliance. Now, I also said it would be unlikely if you were failed in an inspection, but technically, you could be. And, you would have no manufacturer's warranty if you did not follow the instructions. And, if something did happen, not following those instructions would put you liable. I also said, the odds of that happening were slim, but maybe you cannot read...or understand. WHen it comes to installing things, when codes are involved, there is a provision in there that nearly always says something similar - installed per the manufacturer's instructions. That most inspectors do not often check that doesn't mean it's still not the code, and technically, a failure.

 

[Jadnashua]

I guess I've heard enough ........"S" prods banned from my installations . Just sick of this sand damping.

Mission accomplished .

EVERY manufacturer's certification letter/test report has similar verbage...so does that mean you won't use any of them? Every manufacturer requires things to be installed per their instructions if you want a warranty as well. They may give you permission to deviate - but that is treated like the manufacturer's instructions.