Layout lines on Ditra

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Eurob

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You do not prefill -- not a waste of time -- Ditra for lines tracing of the layout.

Preventing contaminants to enter the dovetails is one of them. Not installing the same day -- preventing accidental lifting -- is another one .

Many other reasons to do it.

I would go now to check if MA is listing it , until then no lines on Ditra are allowed.
 

ShowerDude

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Boy did I used to get mad at my teachers and parents with school. WHY do I have to know this stupid math fraction stuff? Who cares where Germany is and that they make orange stuff .... when is that ever gonna help me?

Well, A few mountains moved..... and whammo, I was using it on my way to my first real world job...hands on, navigating my way to work and counting the miles, in fractals mind you and ill be dammed if i didn't have Orange handlegrips on my bike.

SO I can fully support Jims hunger to learn shower building at not 2 but 3 training seminars ( sorry Jim), and why not expand to multiple colors of branded products, Afterall we all may need a second career in online support services ourselves NO? and Im pretty sure I just gave you all valid reason to Pay ATTENTION in school.

Jim, I also apologize for referencing "Maryland" in all its glory I realize it is not MA, nor Germany. I must not have applied my same study acumen to Geography......
 

Jadnashua

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".....In the case of Ditra, hairspray wouldn't make a difference as the matting works by mechanical lock as opposed to bond." - Dave Gobis Source

So hear again we are being told that the Ditra uses the mechanical bond created by the dovetails. Yet the Ditra Heat has none. I wonder if Dave would be OK with Hair Spray over Ditra Heat?

I wonder what Schluter will say?
Schluter would say you're being a fool...the Ditra Heat mat does have a bevel around the entire towers that the wire snaps into, and the pyramid shaped depression helps to hold the whole thing so it can't slip out after it the thinset is properly installed - stabilizing it so the bevels (small dovetails) can work. The thinset, and therefore the tile IS held in by a mechanical lock on ALL versions of Ditra - the shape of those mechanical locks differ between Ditra or DitraXL, and Ditra Drain or Ditra Heat, but it works in exactly the same way.

Keep it up, John, you'll look even more like a fool than you are.

You can pop a tile off of Ditra very much like you do off of a floor without an uncoupling membrane on it to check for coverage. It takes a little technique, something you might have learned if you went to one of their classes like I did, but it is not hard and works quite well. The trick is to get something like a taping knife under the edge, hold the mat down with it while twisting and lifting the handle at an angle to break the suction.
 

Eurob

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You can pop a tile off of Ditra very much like you do off of a floor without an uncoupling membrane on it to for coverage. It takes a little technique, something you might have learned if you went to one of their classes like I did, but it is not hard and works quite well. The trick is to get something like a taping knife under the edge, hold the mat down with it while twisting and lifting the handle at an angle to break the suction.

You actually don't know what you are talking about. You should remove a 24 x 24 with your little knife , without pulling the -- Freshly installed -- Ditra up . 100% coverage in between 2 walls , like the last row.

You should stop spreading these basic and ridiculous statements -- as per basic and vague Schluter's teaching over a patch -- and not polute the thread(s) anymore with them -- one extremely biased opinions --.
 
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Jadnashua

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I'll agree a very large format tile would be very difficult to remove from fresh Ditra...but, for something like a 12x12 or smaller, it is entirely possible with a little technique (I've not tried it on a larger tile). And, if the Ditra was just installed, it will go back down and bond fine. If it sat overnight, depending on your technique, it may or may not on a very large tile. So, yes, I do know, and yes, I have seen it been done, and yes, I have done it. You might try it yourself - it does take a little bit of technique, and yes, it does help to have seen someone who actually knows what they are doing do it first. That you have not been able to do it yourself also says something to me...kill the messenger is not considered an acceptable practice in civilized society.
 

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But lets not forget that you can skip the spot checking of tile and just bang it out..... Schluter says so.
And, where in any of Schluter's documentation does it say you can or should do this?

It is possible to remove a freshly installed tile from Ditra without tearing or dislodging the membrane. Once the thinset has set, that's a different story, but fairly easy to remedy. That you haven't learned the technique is not my fault. It is one reason why I invested the time to actually go to one of their classes...they actually do teach you some things, but as a 'pro', you obviously know everything!?
 
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Justadrip

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So we are not pros cause we didnt take a 2day class? Go set tile in the real world,not on a computer screen. You wouldn't make it one day as a helper let alone a setter.

You are now walking a thin line minimising what we do and how we do it. Post your comment over at JB and watch your credibility vanish.
 

Jadnashua

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So we are not pros cause we didnt take a 2day class? Go set tile in the real world,not on a computer screen. You wouldn't make it one day as a helper let alone a setter.

You are now walking a thin line minimising what we do and how we do it. Post your comment over at JB and watch your credibility vanish.

When you've seen it done, it no longer qualifies as impossible. That you have not, does not make it impossible. Breaking the suction bond between the tile and the membrane without compromising things takes a bit of technique, but is not impossible, or all that hard. I'm sure someone with more experience would gain more from one of these classes, but seeing is believing, and, I fully agree, does not make one a pro, but can help with a few tricks of the trade some may never discover, and dispel a lot of the misinformation out there proposed by some that haven't discovered those tricks or been shown them.
 

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I saw the space shuttle launch and I read how they did it. This does not make me an astronaut. Your point is invalid.
 

Jadnashua

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I saw the space shuttle launch and I read how they did it. This does not make me an astronaut. Your point is invalid.
You missed the point that after being shown, I did it myself. This is the advantage of a class...watch, try, learn. It can be done, and isn't all that hard. It is easy to fail. Some treat that as impossible.
 

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No Jim you are missing the point. My beef is not that you have pulled up a tile its that you now think you are a tile setter after taking classes. Out of all the time you spent at the classes, how much trowel time did you have? Hour? 2 hours? You learned how to pick up a tile with a margin trowel. You think that was just thought of? I have been doing it for years. Every setter has.
BTW-a margin trowel is the tape knife thingy.
 

Jadnashua

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And, if you want to get a tile off Ditra without pulling the membrane off, it's much easier with a different tool.

You're missing my point as well...I never claim to be a pro at this, but I can recognize when someone is pulling the wool over my eyes. I can read and understand the instructions the manufacturer provides. Being an engineer, I can also understand why they often say to do things one way. I recognize that people in the field bend the rules, and most of the time it works. I also recognize that it also sometimes bites them. There are reasons the thinset manufacturers and uncoupling membrane manufacturers say to not try to level as you're tiling - the industry guidelines also tell you this. That the economics of the job prevent that all of the time does not mean the job was done per the guidelines OR it will have issues long-term. I recognize that, but in telling someone how to do things that may have never done it before, which is the basis of this DIY'er site is to guide them on how it is supposed to be done, not what a pro may be able to do in their sleep. Some of the examples like leveling over an uncoupling membrane and trying a bonded mudbed over one are just plain wrong, regardless of whether you are a pro or a DIY'er and break all rules. Those are some of the more egregious, and were defended by some of the other pros. If you're going to offer advice, offer advice geared to the DIY'ers here that reinforce the manufacturer's intent and experience in developing and certifying that it will work. WHen you work on the edge, you are more likely to have issues, and a first timer is unlikely to understand or recognize how close to the edge he is. Something a pro may both understand and be able to pull off. Most of the people here are NOT pros - talk to them as if it is a first-time endeavor, guild them towards the accepted, approved, validated procedures the manufacturer spent maybe millions of dollars and many years perfecting and they are more likely to be able to replicate. Not something that a pro knows they can make work in that particular situation.

If you want to express the tricks of the trade that might allow an unusual job, discuss it where the pros hang out, not on a DIY'er forum. Or try to qualify the person doing the job to see if they actually are likely to succeed. Some of them can do amazing work, some have never mixed thinset or picked up a trowel...what they end up with still needs to function well - tricks do not solve that...solid, basic information does. The people at www.johnbridge.com do understand that, and, I think, provide a better, more reliable, and installs that will meet the manufacturer's instructions and maintain their warranty. That could be true here, but isn't, at least in the shower/bathroom area except when the questions are related to plumbing or electric, where there are pros that both understand and guide based on both the codes and the abilities of those involved. Sometimes, the best advice is to hire a pro. Not to be talked down to by one with an ego, trying to look like god that can do no wrong.
 

Eurob

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I've never seen a DIYer -- Jim -- post with such a disrespect towards trades people -- pros -- , filled with propaganda of extreme biased for one mfg product .

Over and over and over of repeating the same BS to promote one way of doing things, one mfg , one narrow opinion,......... I guess you tell your doctor , accountant , lawyer , etc. how things also work , eh?

I guess it is our fault since we tried helping others in need . Instead , now , we are having the helped ones telling us how things work . That Karma thing........

We should probably ask the other mfgs , except one -- tile and stone products -- to include in their literature -- No Warranty Unless Installed by A Tile or Stone setter ( Tile mechanic ) -- , as per plumbing parts which include in their literature -- No Warranties unless installed by a plumber -- .

It gives me no pleasure to write these , but this thread is just an example of the arrogance in which ......I guess I better not continue .

Such a disrespect for such a beautiful trade .
 

Jadnashua

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Where have I said a pro can't often do beautiful work? I appreciate their skill and the ease with which they can do a job I may struggle to accomplish, if at all. I also read that the TCNA says that 75% of the tiled showers in America are built incorrectly. The vast majority of those are built by supposed pros. I also saw the pros results on my sisters $500K custom house where they installed tile on inadequate subflooring over 24" OC supports that failed and the tiled shower leak (no waterproofing even attempted over the bench). All of these jobs were done by 'pros'. So, there are lots of people out there that don't have a clue on the industry standards and are doing work that call themselves pros. THen, there are some very conscientious, extremely talented, very creative people out there that are what I call true professionals. I do not have personal experience with the people who post here work. Yes, I see the finished 'bragging' pictures, and an occasional in process picture, but some of the descriptions just don't add up to meeting the industry standards - looks aren't everything.

Most of the 'disagreements' I have here are with John Whipple, who implied you cannot make a Kerdi shower work properly by following the NA established instructions, or his feeling that what the industry says works is inadequate, and says the only way to do things is to way overkill the situation. Sure, if the customer is willing or coerced into it, fine, but to promote that it is the only way for reliable way to do things, or to install products that violate the intent and design of some products as a good example of how to do things is just wrong. What is the TCNA actually doing when they perform testing and procedure validation? Why do they and the ANSI specs exist? To define and promote methods that work. Why do the manufacturers spend sometimes years and lots of money developing a product to be second guessed by someone that then uses it in a different manner? Ignoring them is kind of foolish, IMHO, and not the sign of a professional.

Maybe you've heard of Dave Gobis...I met him when he was the Director of CTEF where I was taking a class nearly 10-years ago and he is one of the most respected forensic tile people out there today - IOW, a wealth of both technical knowledge and how they are supposed to be used. He related this following story about one pro that had called him out who had years of experience and a good reputation...
The guy was complaining about a thinset so Dave watched as he mixed it up. Being a pro, didn't measure, did things by eye, determined by look and feel when they've mixed the stuff 'correctly'. He was complaining about the texture and 'feel' of the stuff when he used it. Dave said I'll look into it.

A month or so he went back, brought a bag of thinset and asked the guy to try this one. He started to mix it up, finished, and Dave says, keep mixing. The guy looks at it, feels it, gives him a look then keeps mixing. This goes on a couple of times. They let things slake, and Dave says, wait a little longer. Then, he remixes, and Dave says keep going when the guy stops. Finally, the guy goes and starts to use the thinset. He says, this stuff is great, a BIG improvement over what I had last time. What did you change? Dave told him, you mixed it per the instructions, it's the same stuff.​
The whole point of that was: pros get into a rut sometimes. They do not use the products as designed thinking they know better. The bag says mix for 4-minutes at a certain speed, they look at it after maybe two, and say that looks right or maybe add a bit more water to make it 'smoother' (it very well may be what they've been using for years, doesn't mean it's right or as good as it could be). Sometimes, people need a reality check - I actually read the instructions. I believe, for the most part, the people who make the stuff actually know what they're talking about and how to make it work at its best. With the case of Schluter, they do not produce products that they haven't tested and they are very conservative about their results - they know it will work if you follow the instructions and it does not require extra steps, multiple redundancies, and the associated extra time and expense to make a reliable product. They are by no means the only company out there like that, but may be the most conservative.

I've helped lots of people build a conventional shower, and install cbu rather than any Schluter product, but those that get the most controversy are disagreements with John on what's required to do it and make it reliable. When people ask, I recommend other methods, because I truly believe, while a conventional shower, properly built will last as long as the owner wants to keep it, one made with a surface membrane has lots of advantages. And, since Schluter's patent ran out last year on Kerdi, there are a bunch of imitators out there now promoting their version - if it didn't work, why would they? As to cbu, it works. As to ease of installation, an uncoupling membrane offers lots of advantages, and the original happens to be Schluter's. As to John's backyard so-called shear tests, they're unreliable, inconsistent, and he admitted that he added more water to the thinset than the spec's call for. The fact that they all exceeded the industry standards is just a verification that the industry and the tests run in a controlled manner in a scientifically repeatable manner should be enough. He does not understand what an uncoupling membrane does and that it radically reduces the bond stresses on the tile, so the difference between thinset types is pretty meaningless over one. It IS important when directly bonding tile, but the whole purpose of uncoupling is to do just that, uncouple them.

So, don't take this personally, but while it takes years to become good at a job, there are a lot of people out there that think because they've been doing it this way for decades, it's the best way, or the only way, and feel they have too much knowledge to go to a training session to try to understand some of the newer products or to verify that they're actually using the both correctly and to their best advantage. The 'old way' doesn't always work in the new world. There are lots of pros in Massachusetts that still believe a copper shower pan installed flat on the floor is the best way to do it because they've been doing it that way for many decades. They promote this as a major upgrade. Deluded, and not uncommon with lots of 'pros'. Anyone that tries to promote similar things as the way to do it, should expect someone to potentially call them on it. On this forum, when I can back it up with reliable references or experience or discussion with people I consider true pros, I'll offer a counterpoint.
 

Eurob

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You are just missing the point , Jim.

All industries have problems -- engineering related is also included -- , but to say that after few classes you can help others ....... WOW.

I hope , when retireing , I will not try to design military weapons after few classes or on line courses.
 

Jadnashua

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If you cannot see the bevel on the edge of the tower (it allows the heating wire to snap in place and holds it, but most of the towers do not have a wire passing by or wrapped around it, you're blind. The cavity in the tower, along with the shape of the outside of the tower holds the thinset in place, locking it to the mat, and since the tile is bonded to the thinset, the distance between the towers is fixed, the tiled assembly can expand and contract independently of the subflooring. Because the towers have air space (the basic definition of how an uncoupling membrane actually uncoupled things), it works. Because the stresses on the tile are either compressive (and those are supported by the columns of thinset that go to the bottom of the mat) or shear, and in shear, it is acting against the spring of the mat with the air chambers for cushions, there is VERY little stress in the shear plane. That you don't understand that and keep bringing it up really shows how badly you hold a grudge against Schluter and them asking you to stop misrepresenting their products. For those of you that can see the obvious, you make up your own mind. The stuff works. If you don't like it, don't use it. Rather than placing your wires or mat, then trying to level it (especially if you don't cover the whole floor - like underneath the vanity or close to the toilet), then install your tile, trying to avoid nicking a wire or it all floating to the top if you use SLC cause your hot melt or whatever didn't lock it in place well enough, you'd appreciate that the wire is held below the mat top surface, it can be run anywhere you want to get the heat distributed and avoid your toilet or underneath the vanity, and you don't have to deal with a separate step of getting the floor flat again after installing the mat, you'd realize the advantages of this new product based on an established, many year track record of successful installations. Talk about vindictive.
 

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ShowerDude

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For those of you that can see the obvious, you make up your own mind. The stuff works. If you don't like it, don't use it.

OK JIM when and where have you used it? Orange heat to be exact? and how long has that job been proven to hold up over time if its a NEW PRODUCT??

you'd realize the advantages of this new product based on an established, many year track record of successful installations. Talk about vindictive.

C'Mon Jim........ I know youre gonna spin it towards the uncoupling version and not the Heat version but we all know what that picture is of "orange heat" so you may have to wiggle a little harder....



Lets recap your digression this last few days shall we Jim.

A. You have slipped back into linking that texas website again, attempting to redirect Terrys traffic.
B. Reverted back to linking the Orange stuff.
C. Made A mockery of yourself and proven multiple times you are NOT in any way an actual hands on crafstmen like the pros you argue with time and again.

Still there is hope, while you have indeed have lost any chance of Custom orange Chuck taylors.

We can still try and arrange for an orange waterproof wallet, One in which you can keep your 3 Workshop certificates dry in while you work up a sweat copyig/pasting/typing.


Talk soon,
 

Jadnashua

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The difference between a pro and a non-pro sometimes only depends on whether you get someone to pay you for your work - I only directly help out friends with their projects, and do not expect any reimbursement from them. That I give my knowledge freely here without expectation of monetary reimbursement does not mean that that information is incorrect. John is the one repeatedly posting the picture of Ditra heat and saying there's no mechanical bond of the thinset to the mat. Anyone that is not blind can see that there is. We both have an agenda...mine is to help people understand how the manufacturer deems the product involved to be used properly to achieve the desirable result and maintain a warranty, John's appears to be to expand his ego and promote his company.
 
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