Layout lines on Ditra

[Jadnashua]

If you actually read that document, the tighter gap and filling it is in the second layer. So much for reading comprehension...regardless of who linked the article, it wasn't written by the poster, it was written by the Engineered Wood Association, the people that represent all of the engineered panels (ply, osb, trusses, etc.) that make up a typical structure in NA. And, John, you copied that link in your response and posted the picture of the wet home, as if that was ready for finished flooring...

 

[ShowerDude]

For the record.

1. We are not talking about layout lines on orange floorpaper even remotely at this juncture! which, BTW I have never had a hard time with???? but really who draws lines anymore.? Lasers?


JIM you will not be consulted in the future about hands on subfloor prep. But when i need a book recital you will no doubt be here in the nick of time.

Whipple, You are getting pretty good at graphic design!!!

 

[Sponsor]

 

[JohnfrWhipple]

Funny Doug.

But seriously - did you see the latest Poll on Terry Love's forum? I'd really like your opinion.

Follow this link and cast your vote...

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?57176-Is-Lucy-Pinder-the-World-s-Sexiest-Plumber

 

[Jadnashua]

What John still doesn't seem to understand is that the linked articles discuss how to install the SECOND or UNDERLAYMENT layer of plywood. If you actually read it, it says to not install it until first, the subflooring meets industry standards for dryness, and to address any flatness issues that may exist. They also say that that second layer of ply should be installed just before you are ready to install the finished layer, whether that is carpet, hardwood, vinyl, tile, etc. No rational installer puts his finish floor in a worksite open to the elements, and typically it gets installed after all of the electrical, plumbing, hvac, and often, much of the drywall work has been done. At that point in time, the structure is not subject to standing water and the panels that are there are approaching reasonable moisture content so that they no longer are subject to the swelling that can occur while they are excessively wet. In most situations, the structure has been enclosed for at least weeks, and often a month or more before it is ready for the finished flooring.

As to sidetracking the thread...I think John wins the prize, he hasn't' been able to stay on the OP topic since his second post. His first one just shows he does not understand the properties of an uncoupling membrane.

 

[Eurob]

Can't believe that punch after punch after punch .........you have to give credit to Jim ....he has some type of determination ......reminds me of this guy


Saying that the site is aim to DIYers is probably true Jim , but you can say it only in the threads where they post . And to make matter worse this is how Diying sounds to professionals.......

 

[Eurob]

As to sidetracking the thread...I think John wins the prize, he hasn't' been able to stay on the OP topic since his second post. His first one just shows he does not understand the properties of an uncoupling membrane.

It is so funny the way you are provoking John .....how many holes did the defense -- ''S'' - department plugged with all of the concerns -- John's included -- raised by free posting ? You should at least thanks him ( us ) for the help .


Let's give you one more , about uncoupling membranes , let's see what TCNA says about them.....

An uncoupling membrane is a plastic membrane............and limit the transfer of stress.

There are NO ANSI , NO ASTM or NO ISO standards for this membrane .

These membranes are not characterized by ANSI or ISO standards .

After hearing all the quotes and mentions of TCNA and ANSI and....the installers '' bible '' saying that the membranes work without testing ?

Are the tests unreliable -- numbers exceeding the limits -- ?

Where we should place the uncoupling membranes ? In the unknown standards ?

 

[Jadnashua]

After hearing all the quotes and mentions of TCNA and ANSI and....the installers '' bible '' saying that the membranes work without testing ?

Are the tests unreliable -- numbers exceeding the limits -- ?

Where we should place the uncoupling membranes ? In the unknown standards ?

When installing an uncoupling membrane, the TCNA basically says, follow the manufacturer's instructions.

When it comes to validating a tile installation method, the standard is the Robinson floor test. Any reputable manufacturer does this test and gets it performed for record and the results are easily available.

So, like any product you choose to install, you research its capabilities, and learn how it was designed to be installed, then decide if you want those features...nobody's twisting your arm to use them, or to select a specific one. But, to blatantly discount one for invalid reasons, seems pretty petty.

 

[Jadnashua]

Roberto - lets not forget that the testing for waterproofing I think does not include any seams. So how do we know it's even been checked?

To get an approval for the shower system, and it is a system, they build a shower per the manufacturer's instructions, then verify that it meets the plumbing code, which includes the 'pan' not leaking, which typically requires seams. There are several testing agencies that perform these tests. Schluter happens to use the ICC, and the test report that covers Kerdi, Ditra, and DitraXL is ESR-2467...you can read it yourself, if you have a question.

 

[Eurob]

When installing an uncoupling membrane, the TCNA basically says, follow the manufacturer's instructions.

When it comes to validating a tile installation method, the standard is the Robinson floor test. Any reputable manufacturer does this test and gets it performed for record and the results are easily available.

So, like any product you choose to install, you research its capabilities, and learn how it was designed to be installed, then decide if you want those features...nobody's twisting your arm to use them, or to select a specific one. But, to blatantly discount one for invalid reasons, seems pretty petty.

You just proved John's point -- #1 vendor of "S" products -- , nothing else .

This is where the questions remain unanswered ,

Arguments collide -- having vs. not having standards -- ,

Mortars collide -- unmods vs. mods --

Waterproofing collide -- unmods for seams vs. sealants for seams --

And ........


Many more .


You -- Jim -- are just blinded by the sales pitch and turn blind when it comes to the real questions and answers .

 

[ShowerDude]

So, like any product you choose to install, you research its capabilities, and learn how it was designed to be installed, then decide if you want those features...nobody's twisting your arm to use them, or to select a specific one. But, to blatantly discount one for invalid reasons, seems pretty petty.

Jim your game is up. I use S products, so does Roberto and ill bet John again at some point (although he is pretty pissed at S and i cant say i blame him)

We use S. The problem is YOU and your constant pitch promotion and dancing around the questions with cut and paste office BS.

You are not valid anymore than a Lab coat at robinson test whos never set a tile in a home with a myriad of challenges and conditions, price points etc.

Essentially you are flooding internet space with crap again and again....

There is and never was a valid point to bring up layout lines. Give it up we see right thru you....

 

[Jadnashua]

You just proved John's point -- #1 vendor of "S" products -- , nothing else .

Please tell me where in the post you referenced, there was any specific manufacturer's recommendation? Every product has their specific installation instructions. If you don't like it, don't use it.

 

[Jadnashua]

The report does not list drywall as an approved surface.

John obviously can't read...it clearly lists gypsum board in section 2.0 of the report. Re-read the last sentence in section 2.0

"KERDI is also used as a shower lining, as required in IRC Section P2709.2 and IPC Section 417.5.2 over concrete , mortar, tile backerboard, expanded polystyrene foam board, prefabricated polystyrene shower trays, curbs and ramps, gypsum board and masonry substrates."​

The report does not describe the testing parameters at all like Jim said.

In section 6.0, it lists the procedure "Data in Accordance with ICC-ES Acceptance Criteria for Waterproof Membranes for Flooring and Shower Liners (AC115)".

The report says it passed, it lists the procedure, if you really want to understand all of the intricacies of that, you need to understand the IRC and UPC and AC115. To save space, they reference them rather than repeating them, but the info is there, unambiguous, and complete.

 

[Eurob]

Some complain they don't like Ditra because it won't take conventional layout lines and as a result, spend time to prefill the holes one day, and come back the other, wasting a bunch of time. FWIW, there are ways that work, and are only a slight variation on those conventional ways. While prefilling the holes may make it easier on the knees, a good pair of kneepads or a kneeling pad work if you find the mat so uncomfortable (it's far less obnoxious than kneeling on say cbu to me, though, not counting the fact that that stuff will wear out the knees of a pair of jeans very quickly!).

If snapping a chalk-line, you need an extra (quick, cheap) step - get yourself a $0.99 special drug-store brand hair spray and hit the line with it...it will stay there and, if you've followed any of my other threads, you'd realize it will make NO difference in the performance of the uncoupling membrane since thinset does not stick to the mat in the first place on top!

If the needed line is short enough where something like a straight-edge and a Sharpie(TM) would work, use one of those.

Or, join the modern world and use a laser.

Some people do not like change, but modern materials usually come around because they have some advantages, and often, require change to implement. If you desire those advantages, trying to apply old techniques may not always be the best way.

This is the original post -- OP -- where it starts with complains about real installers ...blah , blah , blah.

Quote Originally Posted by eurob View Post
You just proved John's point -- #1 vendor of "S" products -- , nothing else .
Please tell me where in the post you referenced, there was any specific manufacturer's recommendation? Every product has their specific installation instructions. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Why we need to reference any specific mfg's recommendations , when there is clearly the intent -- disrespectful -- of not doing so , according to the first -- yours -- post . It is also clearly written with the intention of provoking the ones that are not using your techniques -- chair warming -- and in the same trying to make their life -- at work -- a little easier . Those knees and back pain -- if you would do installations -- are a constant in our life , not something found or described in the literature of recommendations . But yet you have the arrogance of telling them -- without knowing if they do -- to wear knee pads if they find the mat uncomfortable .

If you read through out the whole thread , your posts are having one conclusion only -- promote "S" products by any means . When the TCNA works in your favor -- "S" protection -- , you quote them . When ANSI works in your favor -- "S" protection -- you quote them ....and so on .

When the TCNA is not in your favor -- "S" protection -- manufacturer recommendations are to be applied . When ANSI is not in your favor -- "S" protection -- manufacturer recommendations are to be applied . >....ALL of your posts are intended towards one goal -- just promote the "S" products -- ......

OH...almost forgot .....it is none of your business if I like "S" products or not .

 

[Eurob]

I use S products, so does Roberto and ill bet John again at some point (although he is pretty pissed at S and i cant say i blame him)

We use S.

But of course , CB , we like "S" products . We would be fools not to use them .



Do you want me to send you the handbook from the rolls? LOL

 

[Eurob]

Roberto do you find this as confusing as I do.

I still can not get over the thin-set detail. Clearly that is a confusing statement.

Now I have now idea what to believe...... Or who is right.

No John , no confusion there , just conflicting statements .

But , to remove your doubts and confusion -- you should believe me -- I could sell you something different then unmod , mods or 8+9 .



Ardex Ca 20P Who knew? , those Kerdi seems can benefit from it !

No 100% coverage on that tile .... shame on them .

 

[Eurob]

Roberto where do you buy Gypsum Board in Canada. I've never seen any. Why not call Dry Wall - Dry Wall?


Do you find the aggregate in LFT to course for Ditra? When I used Ditra - before I quit I like KeraBond Keralastic. Finer aggregate in the Kera Bond.

No medium bed for prefill or under Ditra . Usually ultra flex RS or if necessary GraniRapid.

For tiles to RS , medium bed is the norm for me. For exterior the KT & K will be the norm.

I try to stay with one mfg for the mortars and grouts , but Don't have any problem to mix them if needed.

 

[Eurob]

Really - Why? I think you might be a fool to use them in the first place. All this effing restrictions. The brass at Dural tells me their version is coming any day now. I bet it looks the same. Works better and costs less.

Lets wait and see.

I didn't say to use only the Ditra. But would be foolish not to use it if necessary.

For now , D is the affordable and easily available. I would not bore you with the qualities and performances of the D.LOL

 

[Eurob]

Roberto three rolls of Ditra? Why not Strata Mat.

I don't see any Kerdi Flex in that truck. Did you not read the link Jim gave us? It's mandatory and trumps the printed instructions.... I do have to thank Jim - I never caught that before he opened my eyes with the report. Such an important part of the Kerdi Ditra install....

Funny - Kerdi Flex is 20 mil thick and Kerdi Band is 4 mil thick. Must be why Kerdi Flex is required by the test report company.... Who knew?

I would not tell " why not the Stratamat? "

The Kerdi band is for waterproofing , no outside installation needed. Not a must do for this project.

Kerdi Flex is probably for the DS . 12mil is like 3 KB one on top of each other.

 

[Jadnashua]

I don't see any Kerdi Flex in that truck. Did you not read the link Jim gave us? It's mandatory and trumps the printed instructions.Funny - Kerdi Flex is 20 mil thick and Kerdi Band is 4 mil thick. Must be why Kerdi Flex is required by the test report company.... Who knew?

Kerdi Flex is required over an expansion joint (in concrete)...just like with any installation of any product, you need to honor concrete expansion joints up and through the tile. That this should be something so revolutionary to a professional seems odd. Anywhere else you may have a Ditra or Kerdi seam, the Kerdiband is specified. Cracks, that's a different matter, and depends on their size and if there is an offset, what and how you might address that, if it is needed at all. Kerdi Flex, as it's name implies, is flexible and to get the required strength and properties to be able to stretch over that expansion joint, ends up being thicker, so you can maintain your waterproofing capabilities. Something you might have picked up if you took the time to go to one of the free workshops offered. The general instructions do not cover every exception or special circumstances...that's what the training is for and the tech support.

FWIW, I've never seen a concrete expansion joint in any of the showers I've ever been in, so for the majority of uses, people would never need that KerdiFlex. Which doesn't address that John couldn't read, or didn't already know (that link has been posted more than once and that section quoted), that he was wrong, probably knew it, and nobody chastises him...It's okay for him to call me a liar and incorrect when he should know better, but if I get something out of context, it's a major issue.

If you take it that KerdiFlex is required for all seams, you're misreading the document:

"The membranes are separated at expansion joints to avoid restriction of the joint movement, and the seams are sealed with flexible KERDI-FLEX."
​

More of John trying to trash a product with misinformation.

 

[Eurob]

I can not wait to get my hands on Dural's new uncoupling membrane.

Very nice. Can't wait to have your input.