Katalox Backwash How High Lift

[Doowopper]

I just noticed that you added this:
3. That valve on the tank output would be seeing bypassed water during backwash. So it has not gone thru the KL. I would put a pressure gauge on that to see how that differs from the pressure at the pressure tank. (#3 was added later)

No water is being drawn during backwash. When a filter starts a backwash, the solenoid valve that allows the filtered water to enter the 2500 gallon tank is closed and remains closed until the filter is back in service. Besides, I back wash with filtered water.
But I suppose, a tiny bit might get by at the very beginning.
I attached a photo of the input pipes to the control valve.
The top pipe is filtered water 40 to 60 psi from my 2500 gallon tank.
The lower pipe coming up through the T is chlorinated water from my 120 gallon mixing tank at 20 to 40 psi.
I backwash at 8 am. The 2500 gallon tank is full by then and the hope is that most of the iron particles have fallen down towards the elbow by then so when the backwash water at the top comes blasting in it won't bring too much of the iron with it.

I disagree with you on one thing Reach. You ARE a pro. I bet I'm not the first one to tell you that.

 

[Reach4]

I am a bit concerned though. If iblackihiawk had a problem getting 1 cu ft of Katalox to expand in a 10 by 54 inch tank, how difficult will it be for me to get 2 cu ft to expand in a 12 by 52 inch tank?

1.44 times as hard. I don't think the height of the media column affects it.
Takes some photos of the brass DLFC install. Does the old piece just unplug after you remove the clip and the new one plug in? Hope so.

And the company sends me a control valve with a 7gpm button while displaying in red letters in their ad that the system requires
10-12 GPM. Go figure.

Yep.

How warm is your water? I am wondering about using a 15 gpm DLFC. You want to stay away from 50% bed expansion, because that is the point we expect media to wash out. Do you have a top basket? Best not, but a top umbrella defuser is good. So I am thinking aiming for 35 to 40%.

 

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[Doowopper]

I ordered the 15gpm DLFC. I'll let you how it goes. Supposed to arrive Wednesday.
I bet for a 12 inch tank, 15gpm is closer to what is required.
I don't have a top basket. Too much iron.
I wasn't really sure where to check my water temp.
From inside the pump house, right out of the pipes/ pressure tank it was 77F.
The pumphouse is insulated.
Directly from the bottom of my 2600 gal storage tank, where the backwash water comes from, it measured 79F.
Air temp right now is about 81F. The tank is in partial shade.
I backwash starting at 8am so not sure what the water temp is then, possibly cooler.
I ordered the 15gpm because I'm hoping something will work but I don't see how I can ever hit 15gpm.
I did the drawdown/fill time procedure and the result was 13.9gpm.
I really don't think the new DLFC can help that much but I'm hoping...
But I really don't like living on the ragged edge.
Unless there's something else I'm missing, I think the best solution is to change to a 10 by 54 inch tank.
By my experience with this so far, 12gpm is definitely not enough for a 12 inch wide tank with Katalox (not so Light).

 

[Reach4]

I think you have a good perspective on this. I will be interested to hear how that big DLFC install goes. Is it pull the clip, remove the old, insert the new, and replace the clip? Or something else.

 

[Doowopper]

Does the old piece just unplug after you remove the clip and the new one plug in? Hope so.
Yes. Exactly like that.

Is it pull the clip, remove the old, insert the new, and replace the clip?
Yes. Make sure you push it all the way in and the clip will seat perfectly.

I was somewhat upset with what I received though. See photos.
The DLFC has 10 PGM etched on it and someone wrote on it 15 GPM
I ordered it from Softenerparts.com who are usually fairly reliable.
I would have appreciated an email about what he was going to send me before he sent it.
Don't know what PGM means. I can only assume that whichever country it was manufactured in they don't understand how
to abbreviate gallons per minute. Or maybe it means something else entirely which I'm not aware of.
It doesn't matter.
With it installed, I was able to fill that 20 gallons in 75 seconds which means 16 gpm.
So if you need exactly 15gpm, buy it somewhere else.
Even with that though, it still doesn't raise the bed.
I'm figuring about 30 inches of media so I need from 6 to about 10 inches of expansion.
I have a lot more higher bubbling now but the bed itself doesn't rise.
I have a new tech support guy from the company now to help me. Hopefully he has some ideas.

Incidentally, when I did my initial drawdown, and calculated 13.9 gpm as my max, I realize now, I filled the container with a 5/8 inch hose. Now I'm going 3/4 inch all the way. My drainline out of the pumphouse is also 3/4 inch PVC.

 

[Reach4]

7% high of nominal doesn't seem too bad. These are a bit pressure-sensitive, rather than being a really flat cutoff.

The letters are PGN, but I would not know what that might stand for. I suspect the brass was originally shipped with a 10 gpm button, and that got swapped out. If you want more than 16 gpm, perhaps temporarily, I would remove the button, and moderate the incoming water with a valve temporarily.

Or try the ice in your atmospheric tank

 

[Doowopper]

It looks like a dot matrix PGM to me, not that knowing that helps me any.
If you look at #52 above the DLFC reads 9.0 GPM.
I was just trying to infer that mine may be knockoff. It happens.
None of that matters.
It didn't help.

I already tried it without the DLFC.
It tested at 18 GPM.
Didn't raise the bed and yes, I saw some Katalox in the output so I'm reinstalling it.

​

 

[Reach4]

Yes. That looks different than previous -- different lighting maybe.

Make sure the DLFC is in the right direction. I think the molded numbers go toward the valve.

Nasty business that 18 gpm did not raise the media. Does reinstalling mean new bags of media??? If so, how do you get the impacted media out?

 

[Doowopper]

I just made sure the dot matrix arrow aimed towards my drain line, away from the control valve.

So...
1. Do you believe the clumping or as I recently read "Mud Balls" to be the leading contender?
Or....
2. Insufficient gravel??
If so, will gravel really settle to the bottom assuming I dump everything, break up any clumps and put it all back in with extra gravel?

What else could it be?
What else could be preventing the bed from rising. I really have no choice but to dump it, probably into my 30 gallon container.
I'm just concerned about Katalox's warning:

As you know, I continuously chlorinate my water at 2 -3 ppm because I have iron bacteria. So, the media is already being disinfected.
Do you believe it would be OK to re-install the Katalox?

By the way, during rapid rinse the water drills down forcefully to one side of the media bed, probably because it comes out on one side of the base. See photos. It drills down a couple of inches along the side of the tank and the media piles up that high on the other side of the tank.
As I said, during backwash the water does run clear, but I always wondered why at the start of rapid rinse the water turns brown again for a minute or so.
I think that drilling down is why. The bed can't be cleaned from the bottom, so it gets hosed off from the top, at least on that one side close to the edge.

I don't know that the drilling down hurts anything, but do you think an Umbrella Deflector would be worthwhile to help lessen that drilling down? I can't use an upper basket with my iron content.
I haven't had any luck finding one.
If you think it's worthwhile and know where to get one, I would appreciate it.

 

[Doowopper]

Just read your edited answer.
I never considered it would be difficult to get the media out.
I'll keep you posted.

 

[Reach4]

Removing media (not KL) that is not clumped was not that easy for me in the basement... Used the wet vac over a 1 inch pvc until enough media out to pull the distributor tube. Then I used 2 inch. However if your tank can be laid on its side, then it would probably be easier.

I presume the media is clumped pretty good. Yes, gravel would sink. But I don't think lack of gravel would affect much more than the bottom foot of media. I think you should have had bed expansion, and clumping was the only thing I could think of.... not that there could not be something I am not thinking of.

Reinstall? If you could declump somehow, I guess. If orange iron is gluing stuff together, maybe Iron Out could dissolve out that iron.

So remember, I am not speaking from experience. I am just trying to picture how things might work.

 

[Doowopper]

Thanks Reach. I appreciate all your help.
I haven't heard back from the company.
I really would like to get their thoughts before trying something.
I'll try for a few more days to contact them and if I can't then I'll make a decision.
I have some Iron Out here but like you said, I don't know what effect it has on Katalox.
Have to do something.

 

[iblackihiawk]

Removing media (not KL) that is not clumped was not that easy for me in the basement... Used the wet vac over a 1 inch pvc until enough media out to pull the distributor tube. Then I used 2 inch. However if your tank can be laid on its side, then it would probably be easier.

I presume the media is clumped pretty good. Yes, gravel would sink. But I don't think lack of gravel would affect much more than the bottom foot of media. I think you should have had bed expansion, and clumping was the only thing I could think of.... not that there could not be something I am not thinking of.

Reinstall? If you could declump somehow, I guess. If orange iron is gluing stuff together, maybe Iron Out could dissolve out that iron.

So remember, I am not speaking from experience. I am just trying to picture how things might work.

Thanks Reach. I appreciate all your help.
I haven't heard back from the company.
I really would like to get their thoughts before trying something.
I'll try for a few more days to contact them and if I can't then I'll make a decision.
I have some Iron Out here but like you said, I don't know what effect it has on Katalox.
Have to do something.

Just replying to let you get an update.

Just wanted to update on what I have changed/what happened.

My initial setup was inadequate and I think it caused substantial damage/fouling out of the original media. Coupled with the fact that an outdoor hose is/was connected to the iron filter in the summer and that was the primary hose for a lot of pool activities I think multiple factors went into the first iron filter failing.

Here are my notes/issues that I would correct from the beginning:

1. Do not use 3/4" PEX for any portion of the inlet to a Katalox filter (even with the 10" tank and the 1cuft media) it does NOT have enough capacity.

2. 1" PEX is questionable to use for the inlet to a Katalox filter...it is pretty much 3/4" Copper in ID and if you do use it I would highly recommend that you use sharkbites over inserts and/or OD connections to limit the reduction in flow. Limit elbows/tees etc ofc.

3. Do not put a small micron filter ahead of the Katalox. This I think was a major downfall for me (due to the outside hose) using so many gallons/day. I had even a 25micron filter ahead of my Katalox that was getting plugged up relatively fast and drastically reducing the GPM inlet for backwash.

4. Do not put a small micron spin down filter ahead of the Katalox. I initially had a 50 micron spin down filter. I'm not sure its necessary and if you do and you have quite a bit of sediment/iron/sand/etc you need to make sure its cleaned pretty regularly (for me it was daily almost due to the hose). This is what I had.

https://www.amazon.com/iSpring-Flushable-Prefilter-Filtration-WSP50/dp/B072YVNRZN/ref=sr_1_5?crid=21NUQS94MAAHI&keywords=spin+down+water+filter&qid=1677516794&sprefix=spin+down+water+filte%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-5

I do think that MAYBE this would work pretty well but it wasn't available at the time. I am done plumbing for awhile hopefully...but if I do make changes in the future I would probably add this and remove my 100 micron filter ahead of my Katalox tank.

https://www.amazon.com/iSpring-WSP50ARJ-Spin-Down-Sediment-Touch-Screen/dp/B09ZCYRS4H/ref=sr_1_30?crid=21NUQS94MAAHI&keywords=spin+down+water+filter&qid=1677516860&sprefix=spin+down+water+filte%2Caps%2C105&sr=8-30

5. Daily backwash in summer, probably down to 2 days rest of year. I do not think there is a downside to backwashing daily if your septic can support it (mine can).

6. I would highly recommend the 1" Stainless Steel bypass valve over the 3/4" Stainless valve for GPM reasons.

7. I would have gone with 1.5 cu/ft minimum (and I do now)

My Current setup:

1" Copper Inlet ---> 1" Sharkbite Valve --> 100 Micron/150 Micron (playing around with size screen still) Spin Down filter --> 1" Flex Hose --> 1" Katalox Inlet -->10" Katalox Tank AIO Fleck 2510SXT w/1.5cu/ft --> 1" Katalox Outlet --> 1" Flex Hose --> 1" Copper --> 1" Sharkbite Valve --> 1" PEX --> Big Blue Filter 25/50 Micron --> Water Softener --> Big Blue Filter 1/5 Micron --> House

With the 1" Copper Inlet/All 1" Fittings my GPM is SUBSTANTIALLY better than with the 3/4" Inlet/Pex etc...

Here is what it looks like now with the 7GPM DLFC with the DLFC washer/reducer inside removed (I think it gives like 8.5-9 GPM personally based on tests):

9.5" of lift (almost 10") and I cannot go higher or I will lose media. I DID try to use a 10 GPM DLFC with a 3/4" Outlet hose and I did lose some media.

**EDIT I WROTE *8GPM DLFC I think it is a 7 GPM DLFC, it is the STANDARD PLASTIC ONE**

The well line is what it hits when the well pump is on so I have max pressure, and the bottom line is right before it kicks on (so lowest pressure. (40/60 standard settings on well pump). Per my well guy my well pump can go anywhere between 15-20GPM so it is not a limitation here.
-----60 PSIG 10GPM DLFC - Overflowed/lost media
-----60 PSI 7GPM NO DLFC INSERT
-----40 PSI 7GPM NO DLFC INSERT
-----60 PSI 7GPM DLFC INSERT (It says 8 but I'm not sure if its 7 or 8 GPM, it is the standard Plastic one) - this was just for a test I do not use this
-----Base Settled 20ish hours after previous backwash cycle

Just some other things to note:

- I moved into the house approximately 1 year ago. Previous owner had a tiny filter that they said they replaced weekly for iron (6$/cartridge a week), and had a tiny like 15000-18000grain softener not entirely sure...everything had iron stains, everything had foul sulfur smell. See original post for Iron ppm/magnesium etc...

- I have not re-tested water but based on my spin down filter which is 50-150 microns (i have 3 different filter inserts i've been trying) anecdotetally my Iron levels I believe are much lower...at the very least there is WAY less iron particulate and iron chunks. I'm not sure if my usage caused us to drop lower into the water table where there is less iron or what happened but that spin down filter rarely has chunks now and it doesn't even get dirty (monthly flush/bi monthly wash) vs before it was a daily flush with almost a week/biweekly complete wash completely covered in iron. I am going to re-test the water here shortly both outdoor/indoor water quality.
- Sulfur smell can be removed with JUST a 50 micron poly filter
- Almost all iron can be removed with just a 5 micron filter (changed weekly/biweekly)

Last update on my old tank/controller. Something went wrong with the controller and it wasn't backwashing correctly (I think a gasket/spacer broke or something) and then I couldn't get to fix it and the media sat in the tank and it is all like rockhard now and I'm not sure if the controller is completely broken or if it just doesn't work because the media is so fouled out (it will not backwash at all and sounds like it is in brine draw when it is supposed to be backwashing). I am going to completely tear it down in the summer and powerwash the media out and have a backup tank available but it is completely in disrepair right now.

Here is original product I bought. It comes pre-assembled, pre-filled, controller is already setup. It comes with almost 0 instructions (I had to call for support when the controller wasn't programmed cause I couldn't install right away). One negative is that whoever put it together screwed the controller on and pinched the cable between the controller and the tank which could have caused a pretty bad short/ruined the wiring (it didn't but it could have and it left a big indent in the AC wiring). Overall tech support is very good, the guy that they have supporting them is very available and he is very helpful in troubleshooting. I also don't like that their description for the Katalox filter has a link to Filox and not Katalox...but I was assured it would be Katalox (from what I can tell it is), but the website is STILL not fixed:

Fleck 2510SXT | Air Injection Iron Removal - Katalox Light

The FLECK 2510SXT system removes iron, sulfur, and other harmful items without chemicals. Our most popular iron removal system for homes comes with Katalox Light for heavy-duty iron removal. The Air Injection Iron Filter Oxidation (AIO) technology oxidizes the iron removing it, giving you clean...

www.reverseosmosis.com

Here is new product I bought. (I personally think the air in is a better setup than the original). They ship it not assembled, and you have to pour everything in yourself (not hard obviously). They also give you tons of inserts on what settings to put in, the controller user guides etc...very detailed. I have called their support and they are very responsive/helpful. I will say that they didn't thread the DLFC correctly onto the quick connect and it was leaking badly and if I remember right it wasn't taped at all...whereas the other didn't have this issue. (easy fix - tape and tighten)

Katalox Filter System with 10" X 54" Tank & Fleck 2510SXT AIO Oxygen Chamber System Digital Control Valve

Helps to RemoveColor - Odors - Iron - Manganese - Hydrogen Sulfide - Arsenic - Radium - Heavy Metals - RadionuclidesKatalox Light is being used in numerous systems for residential, commercial, industrial and municipal applications worldwide.Click to Read More about Katalox Light

www.aquascience.net

I am not pushing recommendations to either site, essentially they both gave 95% of the same hardware and you could just buy it yourself directly (except for the way that the air draw in happens which I think the 2nd and current setup is substantially better/more robust. I just wanted to post where I got the stuff from. (Maybe you could build it all cheaper if you bought all separately but I didn't want to, but I probably will next time).

For Reach4, can you post table for expansion/gpm for the 10" tank for 1.5 cuft of media. I'm curious what type of expansion I am getting (not that I can do more anyways). It is maybe slightly more gravel per the sales rep it was 17lbs of gravel approx.

I think based on previous posts 1.5cuft of media is 33ish" I'm getting approx...

9.5/33 = 29% Expansion
10/33 = 30% Expansion

Any other questions let me know and I'll respond...hopefully I'm done for awhile.

 

[Reach4]

table for expansion/gpm for the 10" tank for 1.5 cuft of KL:

 

[iblackihiawk]

table for expansion/gpm for the 10" tank for 1.5 cuft of KL:

Oddly I'm still getting less than this, but I know I can't get more without losing media so its the best I can do.

 

[Reach4]

If the tank is 2/3 full of media, 45% bed expansion would not reach the top of the tank. I say this to clarify how bed expansion is defined... it is relative to the column of media, and not the height of the tank.