I use Centaur carbon for H2S removal. My media is now 7 years old and going strong. I just started reading how radon can accumulate in GAC as Pb-210, or something like that and then your GAC is radioactive. We do have radon mitigation system for our house, so I know there is radon in the area. Curious if I should be testing my GAC, and how I would go about that. Does a simple Geiger Counter measure this? I suppose I could just replace the GAC every year or two, but it isn't cheap, takes a bit of labor, and even then I don't know if that's "good enough". Curious.....
Is Radioactive GAC a thing?
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MaxBlack
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According to this site radon IS filtered by GAC and DOES result in "radioactive GAC"
But at the same time, it says that radon released to the air by water is miniscule by comparison to radon released into the air from your home's subsoil.
So your GAC is a good thing in re: capturing radon from water and it seems to me to not replace your filter at least annually may not be wise. I have a 20" GAC and found that I could buy them cheapest at discountfilterstore.com.
Our area does have extremely high radon in the ground and I just recently put in a new fan that does 2 times as well pulling the radon out as the first one we had installed. I have to believe/expect that our well water has radon in it though we've not had it tested.
Anyway I don't know that "testing your GAC" is the right thing to wonder about when you can just grab a sample of water post-filter and have it tested professionally. Then you can decide if you need to panic or not.
An "easy" solution (all it takes is money) would be to have your well water pumped into an indoor storage tank which has a vent to the outside, and then have a new/secondary water pump take the aerated (and now radon-free) water from that tank to pressurize your home's water system instead of the deep well pump.
But at the same time, it says that radon released to the air by water is miniscule by comparison to radon released into the air from your home's subsoil.
So your GAC is a good thing in re: capturing radon from water and it seems to me to not replace your filter at least annually may not be wise. I have a 20" GAC and found that I could buy them cheapest at discountfilterstore.com.
Our area does have extremely high radon in the ground and I just recently put in a new fan that does 2 times as well pulling the radon out as the first one we had installed. I have to believe/expect that our well water has radon in it though we've not had it tested.
Anyway I don't know that "testing your GAC" is the right thing to wonder about when you can just grab a sample of water post-filter and have it tested professionally. Then you can decide if you need to panic or not.
An "easy" solution (all it takes is money) would be to have your well water pumped into an indoor storage tank which has a vent to the outside, and then have a new/secondary water pump take the aerated (and now radon-free) water from that tank to pressurize your home's water system instead of the deep well pump.
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Thank you. To replace the media in my back washing carbon tank is around close to $600 Canadian ($450 US).....and that's if I do it myself.
What I would really like to understand is if there is a way to know if it needs replacing? A Geiger Counter is under $100. If I knew it was the answer, I would get one.....
What I would really like to understand is if there is a way to know if it needs replacing? A Geiger Counter is under $100. If I knew it was the answer, I would get one.....
Gsmith22
Active Member
yes, its a thing. I replace my carbon on a 2yr cycle to avoid any issues. The amount of radioactivity will depend on the amount of radon being captured in your carbon. I suppose its possible to estimate the radioactivity if you know your radon level but those chemistry calculations were beyond my comprehension.
Understand that not all radioacitivty is created equal. Generally in radioactive decay chains, there are alpha, beta, and gamma particles given off. If you look at the three remaining naturally occuring decay chains, (I'm ignoring the 4th that doesn't include radon and is currently sitting at Bismuth 209 with a half life of billions of years) radon is typically giving off an alpha particle but degrades into other radioactive elements that can give off beta and alpha particles. Alpha particles are high mass so they can be blocked by very little (like clothing or your skin) but beta particles are lower mass and can penetrate greater. Because of their mass, alpha particles are more dangerous. Because of their ability to penetrate, beta particles are probably more likely to cause a problem. However, all this assumes both are kept outside of your body. When ingested, the alpha particle would be more dangerous but you don't want either inside of your body. And with water being used around the house, there is a tendency for the radioactivity to collect (cleaning clothes, washing dishes, showers, brushing teeth, etc.). All this to say that something like a geiger counter doesn't differentiate between the type of radiation (alpha, beta, gamma) but just that radiation is present. So its not that a geiger counter won't help distinghish if your GAC filter has a higher level of radiation then say outside in the open air but that the type of radiation also matters. None of this is simple so I made my solution simple - replace the GAC often.
Understand that not all radioacitivty is created equal. Generally in radioactive decay chains, there are alpha, beta, and gamma particles given off. If you look at the three remaining naturally occuring decay chains, (I'm ignoring the 4th that doesn't include radon and is currently sitting at Bismuth 209 with a half life of billions of years) radon is typically giving off an alpha particle but degrades into other radioactive elements that can give off beta and alpha particles. Alpha particles are high mass so they can be blocked by very little (like clothing or your skin) but beta particles are lower mass and can penetrate greater. Because of their mass, alpha particles are more dangerous. Because of their ability to penetrate, beta particles are probably more likely to cause a problem. However, all this assumes both are kept outside of your body. When ingested, the alpha particle would be more dangerous but you don't want either inside of your body. And with water being used around the house, there is a tendency for the radioactivity to collect (cleaning clothes, washing dishes, showers, brushing teeth, etc.). All this to say that something like a geiger counter doesn't differentiate between the type of radiation (alpha, beta, gamma) but just that radiation is present. So its not that a geiger counter won't help distinghish if your GAC filter has a higher level of radiation then say outside in the open air but that the type of radiation also matters. None of this is simple so I made my solution simple - replace the GAC often.
MaxBlack
Member
I see. My own filter is a 20" Big Blue and I can get 3 GAC filters for less than $100 bucks US.
I might get a geiger counter:
1. It might tell you there's no more radiation at your filter than outside on your porch or deck.
2. I would use this as an excuse to buy another tool. I use any excuse to buy new tools.
Fitter30
Well-Known Member
Radon in water lab testing.
Thank you. Your post generated lots of questions.
How do I find out if I have a problem? I'm in Canada, and I generally don't have access to the plethora of testing that the US folks have access to, but I might as well ask so I can see how I can test.
I have radon in my house, but I don't know if it's in my water. It seems probable that if I have radon in my water, my GAC is removing it. Does GAC ever get overloaded and fail to remove? Is the 2 year cycle to avoid radioactivity, or to avoid Radon getting through? If GAC is radioactive, I speculate that proximity to the filter is the largest issue. We do have a bedroom above the GAC filter.
MaxBlack
Member
Dirt cheap. Read the reviews. Watch the videos. Do it.
$45 bucks US. Hell, I bought one.
$45 bucks US. Hell, I bought one.
Fitter30
Well-Known Member
Manitoba health dept. 888 315 9257 they should be able to help find a testing sight.
Gsmith22
Active Member
have you read these yet? lots of questions likely answered in these threads
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/treatment-suggestions-for-uranium-needed.91929/
https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/system-review-and-sourcing-5810.93806/
I don't want to alarm you, but radon doesn't exist in a vaccum. its an intermediate daughter product of radioactive decay chains so you start with heavier elements slowly becoming lighter elements (all radioactive) that eventually end in stable lead. might want to test for gross alpha to see what else is in the water if you haven't already.
MaxBlack
Member
FWIW I received my geiger counter and readings at my GAC filter are no different-or-higher than "normal background".
Our radon-in-air is hideously high, in the forties typically, then our mitigation system lowers that to below 10, so I would certainly expect we have radon in our water. But with the readings I'm getting, we're not going to test or worry about such further.
Our radon-in-air is hideously high, in the forties typically, then our mitigation system lowers that to below 10, so I would certainly expect we have radon in our water. But with the readings I'm getting, we're not going to test or worry about such further.
Bannerman
Well-Known Member
Just performed an online search asking if a Geiger counter will detect radon in well water.
The response from one site was: "A Geiger counter may detect some of the ionization particles from unstable Radon isotopes, but may not be comprehensive in detecting its overall presence."
The response from one site was: "A Geiger counter may detect some of the ionization particles from unstable Radon isotopes, but may not be comprehensive in detecting its overall presence."
Thank you for the feedback. Anyone know a company that does gross alpha testing in Canada?
I am curious if there is some point at which alpha particles will pass through the carbon filter? Is there some point at which the carbon becomes radioactive to the point that beta particles could harm someone in a bedroom that is 5 to 10 feet from it (through the floor). Or if maybe beta particles could pass through the filter? I need to do more reading.....
I am curious if there is some point at which alpha particles will pass through the carbon filter? Is there some point at which the carbon becomes radioactive to the point that beta particles could harm someone in a bedroom that is 5 to 10 feet from it (through the floor). Or if maybe beta particles could pass through the filter? I need to do more reading.....
Gsmith22
Active Member
alpha can't pass through a sheet of paper so its unlikely getting through the filter body and certainly not through your skin. keep alpha outside of your body and its fine. beta can pass through the floor and your skin but the furthur the distance and more it has to pass through, the less chance of harm. gamma is a whole different ball game but based on what we know of radioactive decay, there shouldn't be any gamma being produced with any of the three radio active decay chains you will cross in nature.
NTL is recommended on here alot but I don't know if they service Canada. I have found a lot of local labs use NTL as well. maybe contact them and they can direct you to someone local if they won't directly serve you.
with regards to all this stuff building up in the carbon filter, i actually wasn't too worried about the filter being in the house and more worried about me handling it when changing out the carbon or worse, our municipal trash flagging me becasue they detected radioactive material. apparently its pretty common for them to have sensors for this stuff so crazy things don't end up in landfills. with all radioactivity, time, distance, and shielding are the keys. cut exposure time in half and you cut does in half, cut distance in half and you cut exposure by 75%, and then put something with mass between you and the source and it cuts exposure too. for instance aluminum sheets can reduce beta expsoure. again, problem becomes handling the carbon when you want to change it out because distance goes to 0, time around it goes up, and probably have little in the way to shield unless you got a lead suit hanging around. moral of the story, change out the gac before its a problem. i settled on 2 years.
NTL is recommended on here alot but I don't know if they service Canada. I have found a lot of local labs use NTL as well. maybe contact them and they can direct you to someone local if they won't directly serve you.
with regards to all this stuff building up in the carbon filter, i actually wasn't too worried about the filter being in the house and more worried about me handling it when changing out the carbon or worse, our municipal trash flagging me becasue they detected radioactive material. apparently its pretty common for them to have sensors for this stuff so crazy things don't end up in landfills. with all radioactivity, time, distance, and shielding are the keys. cut exposure time in half and you cut does in half, cut distance in half and you cut exposure by 75%, and then put something with mass between you and the source and it cuts exposure too. for instance aluminum sheets can reduce beta expsoure. again, problem becomes handling the carbon when you want to change it out because distance goes to 0, time around it goes up, and probably have little in the way to shield unless you got a lead suit hanging around. moral of the story, change out the gac before its a problem. i settled on 2 years.
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MaxBlack
Member
So effectively this is all much ado about nothing. At least I now have a geiger counter so I know when I can safely go outside after the coming nuclear holocaust.
Hmm I need still goggles, and a suit.
Gsmith22
Active Member
if that is what you took from what i have posted here, by all means carry on. a darwin award awaitsSo effectively this is all much ado about nothing. At least I now have a geiger counter so I know when I can safely go outside after the coming nuclear holocaust.
Hmm I need still goggles, and a suit.
I appreciate your insights as it would take me many days of study to get to your level of knowledge on this subject. It sounds like it is unlikely Gamma is a problem. It sounds like Alpha is most likely only a problem when handling (emptying) GAC as it is unlikely to get through my GAC. It sounds like safe handling (with gloves/coveralls), and short exposure should limit this. It sounds like Beta could be an on-going risk while "old" GAC is in use, and when handling/emptying GAC. I suspect Beta is the larger concern for my old GAC and it should be detectable with a Geiger counter if this is truly a problem. Would that be a fair/accurate assessment? The reason I ask is because a Geiger counter is $100, and I'm not certain I can get much water testing done for $100. I need to do some emailing/calling to find out what is available for gross alpha testing. Thank you for the NTL reference.
Gsmith22
Active Member
this video has a very visual description of the three forms of radiation being detected using a geiger counter and how various materials can/don't block the radiation:
here is probably a more practical video using lots of everyday things you know about/may not have realized are radioactive and their various levels:
i hightly recommend both videos as they give what I think is a practical understanding. note also the use of geiger counter in the first video and what is likely a better measurement using a dosimeter in the second video. i personally would probably get a dosimeter if you were interested in measuring anything. the geiger counter just tells you the radioactivity is present by the clicks. the dosimeter is actually using the type of radiation to meaure exposure/potential damage
i think you mostly got it (or at least you have my understanding
): attempt to keep all elements that give off radioactivity outside of your body by removing them from the water. in the case of radon, GAC is a viable technique (aeration is better but most don't have the room for a large tank or high enough values of radon to justify it). alpha given off by the radioactive decay will eventually get concentrated in the GAC but as long as you decide not to breath,eat/drink the GAC it shouldn't be a problem. beta will also get collected as radioactive decay continues in the GAC and beta can penetrate the skin so keeping GAC "new" should limit its concentration.my links to prior threads above describe what to do about other radioactive elements other than radon. unfortunately if you have radon, you probably have them too. just depends on the relative values and what if anything you want to do about them.
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