System Review and Sourcing 5810

[Yinn]

I'm currently redoing my plumbing at the POE on my own, including some work to install a cycle stop valve and replace the 3/4" trunk with a 1" trunk to match the POE line. My current system was setup by a local water guy a decade ago. I didn't know anything at the time and I still don't, but figured it was a good time to learn about my system and re-evaluate it.

Current System:
POE -> Pressure Tank -> Nitrate Backwashing Filter -> 20 Micron Cartridge Filter -> Softener -> UV -> House

Pipe Sizing: 3/4" starting after the pressure tank
Nitrate: Fleck 5600 - 10 x 54 tank, no other information
Softener: Fleck 5600 - 15lbs, Injector 1, Drain Flow 1.5GPM, sticker that says ".50 GPM, 1.5LB Salt/Min" 8 x 44 tank

I can't say I fully understand that setup but it's what I have. The fleck 5600 has also been rock solid, without any real issues in a decade. The only issue I've had with the softener is user error when I forget to add salt the brine tank. The thing seems to burn through a lot of salt.

Water Test:
First things first right? I sent my water out to simplelabs, taken at the hydrant by the well pressure tank before my existing system.

PH: 7.71
TDS: 392.4PPM
Turbidity: 0.51NTU
Alkalinity: 220PPM
Hardness: 17.3GPG / 292.83PPM
Calcium: 73.5PPM
Magnesium: 26.04PPM
Silica: 19.65PPM
Strontium: 1.63PPM
Uranium: 0.006PPM

There were a bunch of other stuff at not detected or trace amounts. This includes iron 0.02ppm, manganese 0ppm, sulfur 0ppm, nitrate - 0.23PPM, etc were all minimal.

What I think I want:
POE -> Pressure Tank -> 50 Micron Auto Flush Spin Down ->5 Micron Big Blue -> Fleck 5810 SXT 2.5ft3 Softener w/ 13x54 Vortech Tank -> Existing 10x54 "Nitrate" (Anion) Filter w/upgraded valve -> 5 Micron Carbon Block Big Blue -> UV

Basically the plan is to add a little more sediment filtration. Upgrade the valve head on the existing nitrate filter and upsize my water softener.

I would very much like to assemble and install this myself as I like learning about my equipment and how it works. I've called around locally and unfortunately nobody I called will sell me just the parts so I'm left with trying to source it online and the only way I can find a 5810 right now is part of a system. Does anyone know how I can find someone who may be willing to work with me?

 

[Reach4]

5 Micron Carbon Block Big Blue -> UV

A carbon block filter is not what you want there. They have limited flow rates. I don't know if they shed carbon particles which could shield bacteria.

The flow rates shown in the following document is for when the filter is new. Backpressure will increase as things get captured.
https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...nglish/310077-pentek-ep-series-spec-sheet.pdf

 

[Sponsor]

 

[ditttohead]

BB carbon blocks are not ideal for whole house filtration, that being said we see a lot of them go out of our facility for this purpose. They are very expensive to maintain since the frequency of changeouts becomes a problem. When you say a nitrate tank, does this unit use salt? If not, it is not a nitrate reduction system.

 

[Yinn]

BB carbon blocks are not ideal for whole house filtration, that being said we see a lot of them go out of our facility for this purpose. They are very expensive to maintain since the frequency of changeouts becomes a problem. When you say a nitrate tank, does this unit use salt? If not, it is not a nitrate reduction system.

The "nitrate unit" was sold to me as such a decade ago when I was told I had elevated nitrogen levels. I was giving the installers the benefit of the doubt since it's been a decade since it was installed but my most recent water test didn't reveal a significant amount of nitrates (0.23PPM) which is far below the 10.0MCL.

Reading what you posted makes me think maybe I shouldn't. The "nitrate unit" is not connected to the brine tank. It is only backwashing and I can't speak to what media is inside. This is a large part of why I want to assemble my own and understand exactly what I have and am using too so I'm not blindly trusting it.

While the nitrate isn't a concern, I do however have some concerns around my uranium content. My understanding is that anion and in minor cases GAC is effective for uranium removal. So I would like to add something to address that specifically in addition to the softener.

Thank you both for the input on the carbon block, I'll remove that from the design.

 

[Reach4]

Thank you both for the input on the carbon block, I'll remove that from the design.

Do precede the UV with a 5 micron cartridge filter. That is to prevent there being particles big enough for a bug to hide behind.

I don't use UV, but if you use UV, sanitize your plumbing, including WH, effectively after the UV is up. No sense letting existing bugs grow. I don't know if flow shuts down if the UV shuts down, but if the water flowed while electric or bulb was off, seems to me that sanitizing again makes sense.

 

[Gsmith22]

The "nitrate unit" was sold to me as such a decade ago when I was told I had elevated nitrogen levels. I was giving the installers the benefit of the doubt since it's been a decade since it was installed but my most recent water test didn't reveal a significant amount of nitrates (0.23PPM) which is far below the 10.0MCL.

Reading what you posted makes me think maybe I shouldn't. The "nitrate unit" is not connected to the brine tank. It is only backwashing and I can't speak to what media is inside. This is a large part of why I want to assemble my own and understand exactly what I have and am using too so I'm not blindly trusting it.

While the nitrate isn't a concern, I do however have some concerns around my uranium content. My understanding is that anion and in minor cases GAC is effective for uranium removal. So I would like to add something to address that specifically in addition to the softener.

Thank you both for the input on the carbon block, I'll remove that from the design.

Uranium is best removed with an anion exchange unit. It is setup like a water softener (media in backwashing tank) but removes negatively charged ions (water softener removes positively charged ions like Ca and Mg). In normal drinking water pH, uranium tends to be mostly negatively charged as part of a molecule. But beware, uranium is typically not found "alone" and often is found with other trace amounts of radioactive daughter products (which aren't typically screened for so might show up as a surprise if you go looking for them). The Uranium/Radium series decay chain (which starts with U238) as well as the Actinium series decay chain (which starts with U235) produce various radioactive elements including radium and radon and both end with stable lead (yes, that lead). I have uranium in my water and ended up with a complex system to deal with it and various daughter products. search my user name and you will find past posts regarding it. If serious about removing uranium (and you should be) your setup will probably include water softener -> anion exchange tank -> carbon tank -> soda ash injection to raise pH (that the anion lowers). Soda ash may not be needed with your stating pH of 7.71 but it really depends on what the anion tank is removing in addition to the uranium as carbonates get removed by it (they are negatively charged) and they are what buffer pH. so pH typically drops with anion exchange.

 

[Yinn]

Uranium is best removed with an anion exchange unit. It is setup like a water softener (media in backwashing tank) but removes negatively charged ions (water softener removes positively charged ions like Ca and Mg). In normal drinking water pH, uranium tends to be mostly negatively charged as part of a molecule. But beware, uranium is typically not found "alone" and often is found with other trace amounts of radioactive daughter products (which aren't typically screened for so might show up as a surprise if you go looking for them). The Uranium/Radium series decay chain (which starts with U238) as well as the Actinium series decay chain (which starts with U235) produce various radioactive elements including radium and radon and both end with stable lead (yes, that lead). I have uranium in my water and ended up with a complex system to deal with it and various daughter products. search my user name and you will find past posts regarding it. If serious about removing uranium (and you should be) your setup will probably include water softener -> anion exchange tank -> carbon tank -> soda ash injection to raise pH (that the anion lowers). Soda ash may not be needed with your stating pH of 7.71 but it really depends on what the anion tank is removing in addition to the uranium as carbonates get removed by it (they are negatively charged) and they are what buffer pH. so pH typically drops with anion exchange.

Luckily I did test for lead and it was "not detected" in my water. The other things, radium, actinium, radon I didn't test for. Those are good points, I should go get testing for that

 

[Reach4]

Luckily I did test for lead and it was "not detected" in my water. The other things, radium, actinium, radon I didn't test for. Those are good points, I should go get testing for that

Instead of going overboard worrying about small amounts of etc, why not go with a softener feeding a RO for drinking water?

If you are you in one of the counties listed in this document, you may want to study further: https://www.nj.gov/health/ceohs/documents/pw_faq.pdf

 

[Gsmith22]

actually what you should do is test for "Gross Alpha". That will tell you the overall level of radioactivity and since uranium and all of its daughter products are radioactive, will provide an overall understanding of the extent of any problem without attempting to measure the individual sources of the radioactivity. There are limits for gross alpha too in addition to its underlying individual sources. Since you have already tested for uranium, you can then determine what the radium level is (there are formulas for this). Radium is removed via water softener (its a positive ion) so you are probably already doing this unbeknownst to you. Radon in water is very cheap to test for and can be removed via aeration or carbon. Once you decide to include a water softener (takes out positive ions like radium), anion exchange (takes out negative ions like uranium), and carbon tank (absorbs/adsorps un-ionized stuff ) you pretty much have everything covered at that point and it really doesn't matter the entire makeup of all the daughter products because none of them are getting past that sequence of treatment steps.

 

[Gsmith22]

Instead of going overboard worrying about small amounts of etc, why not go with a softener feeding a RO for drinking water?

If you are you in one of the counties listed in this document, you may want to study further: https://www.nj.gov/health/ceohs/documents/pw_faq.pdf

I didn't see this link you posted before. That document is okay from an overall perspective about potential problems in NJ but it can mislead with the idea that if you are in a particular county, you have to worry about x but not z (like it says for Mercury and Radionucleotides). Also be aware that the PWTA is specifically for the state to track what is in people's wells and not really about helping people buying houses and alerting them to issues during the pre closing process. Sellers are required to perform and pay for PWTA testing and so they do the bare minimum. Radionucletide testing is excluded from PWTA compliance - ask me how I know as it was literally the one thing not tested for that is my issue. I'm in central NJ and supposedly arsenic, nitrates, and fertilizers/pesticides should be a problem but not radionucleotides. I have no arsenic, fertilizers, pesticides, or VOCs but radionucleotides are my issue so you can't get too caught up in the artificial county boundaries - worry about this here but not there type stuff. I initially toyed with the idea of saving $50 and not testing for gross alpha because that shouldn't happen here referencing that type of thinking and the PWTA testing that had been done with the purchase of my house. Very glad I ignored that and decided to go all out with testing (at least one time). I'll probably revisit an extensive/comprehensive test every 5 years and do "what I know about" type tests yearly in-between. Can't be too careful with what you ingest, bathe in, wash your clothes with, etc.

 

[Yinn]

Instead of going overboard worrying about small amounts of etc, why not go with a softener feeding a RO for drinking water?

If you are you in one of the counties listed in this document, you may want to study further: https://www.nj.gov/health/ceohs/documents/pw_faq.pdf

I am in one of those counties, which is why the concern. I have a 5-stage RO for my primary drinking water with the softener currently, but the reality is we utilize the faucet quite frequently - for cooking as an example. A small amount we'll pull from the RO. We'll make coffee from the RO.

But if we're making a pot of pasta, we rarely fill 6 quarts of water from the RO system as an example. My kids also don't use RO water for brushing. If I can get peace of mind for $1000 with an Anion system, I think that might be worth it, especially if it lasts 10-15 years.

 

[Yinn]

actually what you should do is test for "Gross Alpha". That will tell you the overall level of radioactivity and since uranium and all of its daughter products are radioactive, will provide an overall understanding of the extent of any problem without attempting to measure the individual sources of the radioactivity. There are limits for gross alpha too in addition to its underlying individual sources. Since you have already tested for uranium, you can then determine what the radium level is (there are formulas for this). Radium is removed via water softener (its a positive ion) so you are probably already doing this unbeknownst to you. Radon in water is very cheap to test for and can be removed via aeration or carbon. Once you decide to include a water softener (takes out positive ions like radium), anion exchange (takes out negative ions like uranium), and carbon tank (absorbs/adsorps un-ionized stuff ) you pretty much have everything covered at that point and it really doesn't matter the entire makeup of all the daughter products because none of them are getting past that sequence of treatment steps.

Gross alpha is 5.8, adjusted gross alpha is 1.78, uranium is 0.006ppm. All the numbers are below the MCL, but above the MCL-G.

The one thing I have to keep into consideration is that while those levels are low, when I start running them through resin for removal, I'll start collecting them. I saw a couple of studies that said you can then end up with a collection in the tank that needs special handling and disposal because that small amount now becomes a decent concentration.

It kind of creates a problem while trying to solve another.

 

[Gsmith22]

Gross alpha is 5.8, adjusted gross alpha is 1.78, uranium is 0.006ppm. All the numbers are below the MCL, but above the MCL-G.

The one thing I have to keep into consideration is that while those levels are low, when I start running them through resin for removal, I'll start collecting them. I saw a couple of studies that said you can then end up with a collection in the tank that needs special handling and disposal because that small amount now becomes a decent concentration.

It kind of creates a problem while trying to solve another.

yes, those are relatively low values. For comparison, my gross alpha was 40.9 pCi/L, adjusted gross alpha 29.11 pCi/L and uranium is 0.018 ppm (mg/L). So I have quite a bit of alpha coming from radium and other uranium daughter products. I am borderline MCL for uranium but in reality, if I want to lower gross alpha, I have to get uranium and its daughter products out of the water so it really doesn't matter what the ppm was for uranium (at least for me).

For ion exchange tanks (water softener and anion exchange) that are regenerated with brine , you use the brine (salt dissolved in water) to force the uranium, radium, and any other ions off of the media and back into the brine exchanging positions with the Na (in a softener) or Cl (in anion). The brine gets rinsed out of the media removing the contaminates with the rinse. So for ion exchange in general, there should be no buildup of ions in the media - you would be constantly removing any radionucleotides (or other ions) extracted from the source water via the regeneration. That being said, I would clean the media with an acid (iron out, citric acid, etc.) every so often to guarantee no buildup.

Where no buildup of ions wouldn't be true is in media that absorbs or adsorps (carbon for example). Any backwashing of these types of media is really only cleaning debris and removing channels that develop in the media (reclassifying). Backwashing here isn't removing things pulled from the source water that are "adhered" to the media. You have to change out the media to get rid of the contaminate building up. As an example, I am using carbon to suck radon out of my water (which is radioactive). Because of this, I am purposely changing out the carbon every two years regardless of its ability to continue to remove stuff. I had done a lot of searching online about this and can't remember where but came across a way to estimate buildup of radioactivity in the carbon and settled on the 2 year time frame. Most carbon lasts a lot longer than that and I am sure mine would, but like you said, I don't want to create concentrated radioactive waste.

 

[Yinn]

yes, those are relatively low values. For comparison, my gross alpha was 40.9 pCi/L, adjusted gross alpha 29.11 pCi/L and uranium is 0.018 ppm (mg/L). So I have quite a bit of alpha coming from radium and other uranium daughter products. I am borderline MCL for uranium but in reality, if I want to lower gross alpha, I have to get uranium and its daughter products out of the water so it really doesn't matter what the ppm was for uranium (at least for me).

For ion exchange tanks (water softener and anion exchange) that are regenerated with brine , you use the brine (salt dissolved in water) to force the uranium, radium, and any other ions off of the media and back into the brine exchanging positions with the Na (in a softener) or Cl (in anion). The brine gets rinsed out of the media removing the contaminates with the rinse. So for ion exchange in general, there should be no buildup of ions in the media - you would be constantly removing any radionucleotides (or other ions) extracted from the source water via the regeneration. That being said, I would clean the media with an acid (iron out, citric acid, etc.) every so often to guarantee no buildup.

Where no buildup of ions wouldn't be true is in media that absorbs or adsorps (carbon for example). Any backwashing of these types of media is really only cleaning debris and removing channels that develop in the media (reclassifying). Backwashing here isn't removing things pulled from the source water that are "adhered" to the media. You have to change out the media to get rid of the contaminate building up. As an example, I am using carbon to suck radon out of my water (which is radioactive). Because of this, I am purposely changing out the carbon every two years regardless of its ability to continue to remove stuff. I had done a lot of searching online about this and can't remember where but came across a way to estimate buildup of radioactivity in the carbon and settled on the 2 year time frame. Most carbon lasts a lot longer than that and I am sure mine would, but like you said, I don't want to create concentrated radioactive waste.

Are you using the same brining tank for both? Or do you have separate brine tanks?

 

[Gsmith22]

same brine tank is used for both softener and anion