Interesting Well Pump, Motor and/or PumpTec issue, what do the experts say???

[wellquestions]

Hello and thank you all for this forum and any help the experts here can provide.

Trying to determine the cause of a well pump, well pump motor, or electrical problem.
The quick summary is a Pumptec box cutting out on OVERload for the last couple weeks, but most recently cutting out on UNDERload. Read on for details...

System summary:
Well Depth = 500 feet
Well Pump Depth = 480 feet
Water level in well (ranges from 250 feet down to about 350 feet down depending on usage
Well Pump: Grundfos 5S10-22 4" SP (installed new 10 months ago)
Well Pump Motor: Franklin Electric 1 HP, 230v, 2 wire, 4 inch SS, model #2445089003 (installed new 10 months ago)
Well Pump Breaker: 20 amp
Square D 40-60 pressure switch, model #9013FSG2 (14 years old)
Pumptec Pump Protection System (installed new 10 months ago. Inline after the pressure switch)
Wellxtrol WX205 Pressure Tank (14 years old)

The Problem:
The well pump and motor have been working fine since they were installed new about 10 months ago. A couple weeks ago the Pumptec box began to cut out on OVERload (flashing yellow light). The well still has plenty of water. Turn off the well pump electrical power switch for 5 seconds, turn it back on and the pump resumes again no problem. This has been happening randomly maybe one or two times a day the last couple weeks, same quick fix each time, turn power off and right back on. So the well pump installer came out (service call under warranty since it's less than a year old), put an amp meter on one of the pressure switch power lines, turned on a bunch of faucets in the house to make the well pump run continuously, for the first 4-5 minutes of running the amps were in the 7.3-8 amp range (normal for this Franklin motor), but then after about 6 minutes of running the amps began to climb higher and then jumped about 1 amp per second until the Pumptec cut the power off. (there is still plenty of water in the well)

So the well pump installer says the well pump motor (and maybe pump head) is no good, okay so it's less than a year old so it is under warranty (both the pump/motor and labor). But wait, in the next sentence the installer (business owner) says it got hit by lighting so nothing is under warranty. When asked how he knew it was lighting, he just assumes that's what it is (meanwhile the pump & motor are still in the well, nothing yet pulled up for a physical check). Nothing else in the house (including a bunch of computers, other electronics, etc. is malfunctioning, it's hard to simply accept lightning as the cause without further research.

So now the installer won't pull the pump without charging the labor AND the cost of the motor because he thinks lightning was the cause (hopefully the pump head is still good). He said he has to take the pump and motor back to the distributor for them to check if it was hit by lighting or just a mechanical failure. If found to be lightning no warranty (charges apply, that's understandable), but if mechanical failure then the installer said he will refund both the cost of the pump/motor AND the labor to replace it since it's only 10 months old. He said it could take weeks for the OEM to bench test it and determine the cause of failure (seems like a lot of trouble for a huge manufacturer to go through on a $400 motor). How would I even know what the report comes back at? At this point I would have already paid for both the labor and a new pump/motor for the second time in just 10 months, am I to have faith that the installer is just going to give money back if found not to be lighting? Is this the normal course of action for a warranty claim? Do distributors/OEMs really give their customers (the pump installers) a hard time warrantying a $400 motor and $600 pump head under a year old?

So feeling as though the installer was using lightning as an excuse to get around having to warranty the labor, it was time to check into things and do some tests.

Test #1 - Check the pressure switch to make sure voltage is okay on both power lines. The Square D pressure switch is 14 years old, the far right side contact is pretty well burnt out, the other 3 contacts look okay. The volt meter was reading 120v on each power side (even the burnt contact) and then when the pressure switch was on (calling for water) it was reading 240v (as expected). Holding the volt meter on the pressure switch terminals for about 5 minutes during continuous well pump running, the voltage on the two well pump motor leads held steady at 240v.
*Plan on replacing the pressure switch anyhow because that right side contact is burnt and doesn't look so good. But it does not appear that the pressure switch is at fault. The Pumptec is installed after the pressure switch and the Pumptec is NOT cutting out on under or over voltage (only on overload).

Test #2 - Put the amp meter on one of the power wires in the pressure switch. Turned a bunch of faucets on to make the well pump run continuously. Amps held steady around 7.3 - 7.8 amps for the first 5 minutes of running. At about 6 minutes the amps began to start climbing slowly (about 0.1 amps per 5 seconds), then once it got to around 9 amps the amps started going up faster and eventually jumping a full 1 amp almost every second until the amp meter showed around 17 - 19 amps and the Pumptec kicked out on OVERload (flashing yellow light).
So for the quick fix, immediately turned power off, then right back on, the PumpTec started flashing green as normal running and the pump started working fine again until the pressure tank reached it's required 60 lbs - which at this time only required the well pump to run for about 30 seconds to a minute so it didn't kick out on overload. Seems as though the pump needs to be running continuously for a good few minutes for the amps to climb.

Test #3 - bypass the Pumptec microcomputer (opened the Pumptec box and connected the power lines from pressure switch and well pump motor directly together at a terminal in the Pumptec box).
Put the amp meter on one of the power lines inside the PumpTec box, opened the faucets and began the test again. Amps held steady around 7.9 - 8.1 amps (slightly higher than when testing at the pressure switch) but seemed not too big of a difference in amps to get concerned. After about 5 minutes of the well pump continuously running, amps began to slowly rise, then quickly rise up to about 16-18 amps at which point I manually turned the power off right away.

Okay, so it does seem like there is an issue with the well pump motor - or the electrical wiring leading from inside the house to outside and down the well (hopefully the well pump head is fine).

NOW HERE IS THE STRANGE PART...

For the last couple weeks the Pumptec has been cutting out on OVERload (flashing yellow light). A simple power off, power on at least gets the water coming again until the next time it happens. The last couple days however, now the Pumptec is cutting out on UNDERload (solid yellow light). Now I'm really confused. Amps were going up after 5 minutes of running when tested with the amp meter which makes sense to get the previous OVERloads on the Pumptec. But now it's doing UNDERloads on the Pumptec, hhhmmm what to think?

Does it sound like the well pump motor is going bad? but if it was lightning shouldn't the motor just be done/toast/no power cycling to get it going again? or does this sound like it's something else electrically? pressure switch? (seems unlikely since volts read correctly - but that burnt right side contact is cause for concern at least visually).

If the well pump/motor needs to be pulled out should another well pump installer be used? (as multiple conversations with the original installer doesn't go anywhere, he won't do the labor under warranty since he thinks it's lightning as the cause). On that note, what should typical labor cost to pull/replace a well pump/motor in a 500 foot well - 20 foot PVC lengths threaded together (easy access on property).

Thank you for reading this mini novel haha. Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Craigpump]

Grundfos makes a great pump, but they don't come with Franklin motors, (at least from my distributor) so I'm thinking your installer put the unit together. That may be why he is hesitant to warranty the unit.

The pressure switch is not the problem, it opens and closes. That's all.

There is a reason why the Pumptec was installed, usually because the well doesn't make much water.

Is there a sediment issue with this well?

An overload indicates something is binding up (the amps will climb) while an underload indicates no water. How have you been checking the water level? Dropping ice cubes or with a Well Sounder or Ravensgate? Are you positive about the reported water levels?

We see quite a few lightning hits here and either the pump runs or it doesn't.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Boycedrilling]

Years ago I used to use Franklin motors on Grundfos pump ends. Now if I install a grundfos pump end, it is with a Grundfos motor. Same with a Pentair, or Franklin. If there's a warranty problem., I don't want there to be a a question of who is responsible, the pump end manufacturer or the motor manufacturer?

My experience with lightning is that the motor completely fails.

My only other thought is your pump is set 480 feet deep in a 500 foot deep well. Where is the water entering the well? Was a cooling shroud installed on the pump? If the water is entering the well above 480 feet, you might not have any cooling flow past the motor and it is slowly overheating and binding up, causing the rise in amps.

Was an airline installed in your well to verify the pumping level?

 

[Craigpump]

Years ago I used to use Franklin motors on Grundfos pump ends. Now if I install a grundfos pump end, it is with a Grundfos motor. Same with a Pentair, or Franklin. If there's a warranty problem., I don't want there to be a a question of who is responsible, the pump end manufacturer or the motor manufacturer?

My experience with lightning is that the motor completely fails.

My only other thought is your pump is set 480 feet deep in a 500 foot deep well. Where is the water entering the well? Was a cooling shroud installed on the pump? If the water is entering the well above 480 feet, you might not have any cooling flow past the motor and it is slowly overheating and binding up, causing the rise in amps.

Was an airline installed in your well to verify the pumping level?

I've never seen an airline in a 6" well up here, up until 5-6 years ago most guys dropped ice cubes to see if there was water in a well. Now most of us have Ravensgate or Well Sounders, but they can be affected by cascading water, the sound of a pump running or large fractures.

Rarely do we see shrouds installed. I put them on to help with heavy grained sediment and to help cool larger hp pumps. The water here in CT is 52-54 degrees, most of the time the pumps run for a short time then rest, especially a 1hp 5 with a Pumptec and that water level. There's no way you're irrigating with that well.

 

[wellquestions]

Why did he install a Franklin Motor with Grundfos Pump - at the time don't think the distributor had a Grundfos Motor in stock, just the Franklin motors.

A little history:
- house built (new well drilled) 14 years ago, well drilled 500 feet, pump set 460 foot down, Goulds pump and motor. Well report said well was yielding 1 gpm when new (sounds like a fairy tale number given experience living here). Over the years well yield went lower and lower eventually down to about 0.05 gpm and water always had dirt/sediment in it, house water filters needed changing often. The static water level was way low, down around 425+ feet. How do I know, we have a WellIntel installed which pings the water level every few minutes, awesome device, high recommend it. It's very accurate (confirmed accuracy with one of those fancy electrical testing devices well drillers use).
After almost a year of WellIntel data from the well water levels and recovery rate, the decision was made to hydrofrack. During hydrofracking there was a nice pressure drop inside well (to indicate a feeder vein blew open. Static water levels now range between 250 feet down to 350 feet down. Once greater than 300 feet down the well recovers quicker so the feeder vein is probably around 300 feet down (300 foot down is also where the PVC pipe went from nice clean white color to yellow stained color). Well recovery rate now after hydrofracking is in the 0.15 - 0.25 gpm range (still not great but even with normal routine laundry/showering, etc. we have not been able to get the well water level below 350 feet - pump is set 480 feet down so we are not running the well dry. Well water temp is around 50 C.
Not sure about an airline being installed in well, don't think so, it's just the PVC pipe connected to the pump head and the motor is connected to the base of the pump with bolts. Don't think there is any special cooling shroud installed on the pump either.

Pump/Hyrdrofrack history:
10 months ago, the installer replaced a 1.5 year old Goulds pump and motor (and Pentek box) that he too installed and it went bad (the motor and/or pump). At this time (pre-hydrofracking), he added a 20 foot length of PVC to sink the pump down to 480' from it's original 460' when house was built (the thought being an extra 20 feet of water (30 gallons) gives a bit extra reserve considering such a low yielding well - at the time only yielding 0.08 or less gpm. Could not go any deeper than that given the gauge of the power wire to well pump and it being on a 20 amp breaker (1 HP was the strongest motor for that wire). Prior to that there was the original (12 year old) Goulds pump and motor which was installed when house was built (by a different well company), it was still running when pulled (just had damage from sucking up dirt and running the well dry so many times - didn't have a Pentek or Pumptec box installed for the first 10 years and well ran dry dozens of times, it was actually very surprising the pump/motor lasted that long with so many dry runs.

Prior to hydrofracking the feeder vein must have been clogged with dirt/sentiment plugging it up (which would explain the very low well yield (0.07 gpm or less), low static water level (425 foot down) and the dirt/sentiment in the well water (quickly clogging up whole-house water filters).
After hydrofracking the well water is much cleaner and the furthest draw down of well water level has been in the 350' range down. WellIntel data is showing a recovery of 0.15 - 0.25 gpm range.

So the Pumptec first going out on OVERload with the Amp rise after 5 minutes of continuous running made sense if the motor was bad. But now the Pumptec has been going out on UNDERload which is strange (in-fact the last day it hasn't gone out at all). A quick power off to well motor and power back on gets it working again fine when it does go out on either OVERload or UNDERload. If lighting hit the pump/motor why would the motor even been working at all? No other electronics in the house are problematic. Is lighting just being used as the excuse to get around warranty?

Are there any other tests that can be done withOUT pulling the pump/motor out to prove either lighting or just mechanical/electrical problems unrelated to lightning? After using this same pump installer 3 years in a row for 2 new pumps and motors, and now him not wanting to warranty the labor and motor/pump that is only 10 months old, we are very hesitant to have him pull the pump and replace (if in-fact it is the pump and/or motor that's bad). What do you think a typical distributor would do when the pump/motor is brought back to them being 10 months old? is it going to be a whole testing procedure before they warranty it and give the pump installer a free of charge replacement pump and/or motor?

Again, thank you all very much!!!

 

[Craigpump]

I think if you were my customer, I'd pull the pump up enough to do a flow test and pressure test against a closed valve with my amp meter clipped on so I could monitor the amp draw. I would also use my water level detectors to confirm that your unit is still in calibration.

I know for a fact that my distributor would not only warranty the pump 100%, but he'd help me out on the labor as well.

I don't know who your guy is or who he gets his pumps from, but Grundfos pumps come with Grundfos motors as an assembled unit right out of the box. I have seen issues, about 1.5 -2 yrs ago where the 1hp Grundfos motor wouldn't start. Maybe your guy had the same problems and used a Franklin motor? If that's the case, neither Franklin or Grundfos is going to be in a hurry to warranty your pump unit.

I'd like to know where you're located & who you're using, maybe I can suggest someone else. You can tell me through private IM.

 

[Boycedrilling]

Good to know you have the wellintel unit. I've seen them at trade shows but never used one or talked with someone who has one.

I have both the ravens gate and Eno scientific sonic probes. When they work, they work great. But that's only about 70 percent of the time. I also have the Waterline envirotech wireline water level meter. If there's room in the well or a sounding tube, I can use it. However I have gotten them stuck numerous times and pulled the probes off. If I'm not sure I can get water level reading with a sonic or e-line, I install a 1/4" airline, I use 1/5" wire brake tubing. It more expensive than poly tubing but much, much longer lasting. I probably put airlines in with 25% of the domestic pumps I set and 100% of all larger pumps.

Last week I was supposed to test pump a 15 hp pump in a 6" well, set 210 feet deep on 3" galvanized, the well driller talked the owner into letting him set the pump. He didn't install a $100 worth of airline. Can't get a reading with a sonic meter. Can't snake a e-line down the hole. Had to pull & reset because the driller also didn't check the voltage plug on the 15 hp hitachi motor. Got an airline the second trip in. It's going to be interesting to see who pays for the extra cost of pulling and resetting the pump.

Back to your pump. Sound like you have an excellent history and a good working knowledge of your well and pump. The sediments that you've pump are concerning however. It's a possibility you're sucking some dirt/sediment into the pump and its binding up and that's causing the higher amperage. Usually low amps are; out of water, worn out pump, stripped splines between pump and motor. If the splines were stripped you wouldn't be getting any water though.

So here's your pump and well history as I understand it. Your original Goulds pump lasted 12 years. It was installed when the well was drilled. It was set at 460 ft in a 500 feet deep well, and the static water level around 425 feet. No pumptec on the pump for 1st 10 of the 12 years. Pump was still operating, had not failed when replaced. But well has been pumped dry numerous times and produces some dirt/sediment. Very low yielding well. Not 1 gpm as driller stated, much less.

Different pump company replaced original pump not quite 3 years ago. Replaced original Goulds with another Goulds pump and motor. This 2nd pump lasted 1 1/2 years and then failed. The pump company then changes pump brands to a Grundfos pump end with a Franklin motor. He also installs the pump 20 feet deeper. At some point in the last 2-3 years you installed the wellintel unit to monitor the water level. After a year of monitoring you decided to go ahead and hydrofrac the well. Pump was pulled. Wel,was hydrofraced. Static rose to around 250-300 feet from the 425 foot old swl. Yield increased a little. Still less than 1 gpm. Pump reinstalled. Now having over/undervoltage faults on the pumptec with the 10 month old pump and motor. Have I got everything?

 

[wellquestions]

Sounds about right.

Could the recent UNDERload be because the Franklin motor is heating up and shutting itself down/or stalling, thus sending signal to Pumptec for rapid load drop before the PumpTec catches up to the actual amperage rising so fast?

Did another amp test today at pressure switch, after 5 minutes of running, the amps started quickly climbing, then rapidly ascended to 25-28 on the amp meter, then Pumptec went off on UNDERload (not overload such as expected).

After multiple tests now the amps have only gone up not down so confident the well is not running dry. WellIntel calibration was recently checked by their tech group, everything with the data looks accurate they confirmed.

Btw pressure switch installed before the PumpTec, so Pumptec wont detect rapid cycling situations according to manual (not that this issue pertains at the moment).
Did notice however that there is no ground wire connecting the PumpTec box to the pressure switch. Well motor ground lead connected to Pumptec box, house power ground lead connected to pressure switch. But no ground wire connecting the boxes.

 

[VAWellDriller]

Interested problem.....I'm with Craig...I buy pumps from 4 distributors and none of them even blink on a warranty repair....in fact they frequently offer warranty on lightning stikes.....I am a good customer and buy lots of pumps and have very few failures....so maybe that's. I do see problems here with overheating and no motor shroud. I would be curious if you could get someone to come out and take a stick of pipe off and see if the problem is any different. DSI used to sell Grundfos pumps with Franklin motors, maybe he sold you new old stock; hell maybe he sold you an old pump. If you get this guy to come pull that pump I would be standing by with a camera when it came out of the hole. I would charge about $750 -850 labor to change that pump if it was within 15 miles or so of my shop.

 

[Boycedrilling]

It would be interesting to put a data logger on your well to monitor voltage and amperage. I use an Extech DL160. I set one channel on volts and the other on amps. On a problem like yours I would set it to take log readings once per second. Unfortunately they cost around $300.

Did you purchase and install your wellintel yourself? Interested in hearing more about how you've liked it.

 

[wellquestions]

Called other well pump installers and also the distributor, sounded like no problem to get it replaced under warranty, just need to pay somebody the labor to pull the pump/motor out, take it back to distributor for replacement then labor to reinstall. Does the manufacturer give the installer a refund on their labor for warranty repairs? if so usually how much? doesn't seem like the original installer will cover the labor (or even split the labor cost with us because he feels it was caused by lightning).

any potential of the missing ground wire between the Pumptec and pressure switch boxes having anything to do with this amperage rise issue?

WelIntel : before buying anything, did LOTS of research on the best way to diagnose the well low yield so the proper corrective action could be taken. Was evaluating whether to hydrofrack (and take the chance it would work) or instead go with something like the Well Manager Modular System (which looks really impressive). Figured the WelIntel would be the best place to start as the historical data logging was hugely important to understand the behavior of the well. Had the tech support team bring the timed readings down to 3 minutes for near real-time water level readings (use a deep cycle battery to power it which lasts many months on a single charge). The support team is simply fantastic, great response time and very helpful. No monthly service charges either which is great. One of the best purchases made, really impressed with the system. Went with the Home Static Kit (probably would have been helpful to have the +Pump Kit right about now).

 

[Reach4]

Same as Wellntell?
https://www.wellntel.com/shop/

 

[wellquestions]

So an update. A new Franklin Electric motor was installed 4 days ago (the Grundfos pump head reused). New pressure switch installed, same Pumptec reused (just moved to before the pressure switch, so now the electrical comes from house electric panel, to Pumptec box, to pressure switch, to Franklin well pump motor).
Everything has been working fine, amps holding steady around 8 amps, water coming up no problem. Even put a heavy load on the system over the last couple days powerwashing, no troubles at all. This morning, go to use water and once again, the Pumptec flashing orange on OVERload. Turn power off, back on, amps immediately go to 25 - 28 amps, Pumptec shuts off on OVERload.
At this point even the pump installer is baffled, how could a brand new motor go in 4 days after working fine the prior days?

 

[VAWellDriller]

I think it's overheating...did you raise it up 20' to the setting where it worked for so long? Did you put a flow sleeve on it to cool the motor? Maybe there is issue with wet end.

 

[Craigpump]

I don't think it's over heating.

It shouldn't matter where the Pump Tek is, it reads amp draw and the draw will be the same on either side of the pressure switch.

Was the pump cable replaced? Solid core or stranded?

Did your guy check the torque on the bolts for the straps that hold the pump together? I wonder if when the water level drops and the pump has to work harder, if there isn't a bit off distortion in the pump stack due to a bolt that is torqued differently.

I put in a 1hp 5 Grundfos a few years ago that wouldn't start, we pulled it and found uneven torque settings on the strap bolts. After resetting the bolts to proper torque specs it ran perfectly in the test tank.

Personally, I would've replaced the entire pump unit even if I had to eat it.

 

[Marissa Johnson]

We just installed our brand new superior pump yesterday. 1/2 hp 115/230 volts. Brans new pressure switch and pressure gauge installed as well. But every time we turn on the power to the pump it surges for a second or two and shuts off. If we leave the power on it will just keep surging intermittently. So we have to shut it off . What could be causing this?

 

[VAWellDriller]

Craig-- if ever there were a textbook pump situation that needs a cooling shroud this is it....low yield well...low flow pump....obvious signs water is coming in 180' above the pump...pump sitting right at bottom. It should be obvious if they looked at old motor....would be rainbow color. I see a lot around here....not sure why pump guts won't spend $2 and 5 minutes and put sleeve on.
I like your theory too though (a little better than my theory actually). He has water level device in place....that would provide good info.
I would have changed both pump and motor too.....my distributors all say <2hp stuff so cheap they warrant as a unit.

 

[Reach4]

We just installed our brand new superior pump yesterday. 1/2 hp 115/230 volts. Brans new pressure switch and pressure gauge installed as well. But every time we turn on the power to the pump it surges for a second or two and shuts off. If we leave the power on it will just keep surging intermittently. So we have to shut it off . What could be causing this?

Problem with the pressure tank. It probably has a failed diaphragm.

To check this out, turn off the pump, and open a faucet, allowing the air pressure go to zero. Check the air pressure on the tank. The pressure should be about 2 PSI below your pressure-switch cut-on pressure if you have a submersible pump down the well, and about 4 PSI if you have a jet pump (above ground).

It is possible the problem is something else, but odds are it is the pressure tank.

Melissa, I suspect you did not see how to start a new thread, but did see how to do a reply.
To post a new thread:

Click Forums, which gets you to http://www.terrylove.com/forums/index.php

Click the name of the forum that you want to post into.

On the right, click on "Post New Thread".

 

[Marissa Johnson]

Problem with the pressure tank. It probably has a failed diaphragm.

To check this out, turn off the pump, and open a faucet, allowing the air pressure go to zero. Check the air pressure on the tank. The pressure should be about 2 PSI below your pressure-switch cut-on pressure if you have a submersible pump down the well, and about 4 PSI if you have a jet pump (above ground).

It is possible the problem is something else, but odds are it is the pressure tank.

I tried that. Ive turned off the power, drained the system of pressure,(through the faucet and the spigot at the bottom of the tank) and then checked the air pressure in the tank and its still holding 18 psi for a 20/40 pressure switch. So if im understanding this correct, based on what ive found, it's not a tank problem?

 

[Reach4]

I tried that. Ive turned off the power, drained the system of pressure,(through the faucet and the spigot at the bottom of the tank) and then checked the air pressure in the tank and its still holding 18 psi for a 20/40 pressure switch. So if im understanding this correct, based on what ive found, it's not a tank problem?

Correct.

That would imply that the path between the pressure switch and the pressure tank is somewhat blocked. If you post a photo of the pressure switch and input to the tank, that might lead to a suggestion.