Installing New Upstairs Bathroom - Advice Needed

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by Jay_NY, Aug 3, 2021.

  1. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2021
    Location:
    Central New York
    Hi - I bought a house in the mountains and am renovating it. I've already gone and replaced the former sheetrock ceilings and joists with 4x6 timbers with pine t&g on top to serve as the subfloor for the 2nd floor as well as the ceiling for the first floor.

    IMG_1987.jpg

    My next job is putting in a bathroom upstairs that will consist of a toilet and sink, then a shower and clawfoot tub on a raised platform wet room.

    From reading here I've already learned about the universal hatred for having any part of a bathroom raised on a platform - words like "hack job" and "shoddy worksmanship" echo in my head. Unfortunately there just is not a way for me to do this bathroom without a raised platform due to the downstairs ceiling construction. The ceiling below is open and I need the platform height so I can have proper p-traps for the shower and tub.

    My toilet is a rear outlet Saniflo - the toilet will sit on the floor (not a platform), and all drain pipes will run above the floor, against the outer wall and will be covered by the platform and vanity.

    Here's an overhead view of the planned layout of the upstairs bathroom, red are drains, blue are vents:
    overhead view of upstairs bath.JPG




    Here's a sketch of my planned plumbing layout for the upstairs bathroom:

    IMG_1986.jpg

    Here's a render of the view towards the tub from the WC (the platform is not present because I couldn't figure out how to model that in the app I used, please pretend it's there)

    Upstairs bath - Snapshot - shurnk.JPG

    Here's a render of the view from the tub towards the WC wall - that little door is where the access to the attic will be and where the drain pipes will be accessed:

    Upstairs bath - Snapshot2 - shrunk.JPG

    What I'm really looking for help right now is a review of my plan to plumb and vent everything upstairs, and how to tie it into the existing plumbing.

    As for the existing plumbing, here's what I think is relevant:

    Above the downstairs bathroom (and behind that future little access door next to the new upstairs toilet) is the existing vent stack (1.5" pipe that goes into a 3" pipe - not sure why they didn't just keep it all 1.5" - maybe this was to fool inspectors?). This vent runs all the way up from the crawlspace and vents the WC and maybe also the sink:

    IMG_1955 (1).jpg

    Diagram I drew of the existing plumbing (there are p-traps although I did not draw them)

    IMG_1984.jpg

    And lastly - here is a picture of the existing waste pipe for the WC that goes into the septic

    IMG_1978.jpg

    My questions:

    • What is the simplest way for me to vent everything in the new bathroom? Can I tie into that existing 1.5" vent in the picture? I'm guessing the answer is no
    • If I do a new separate vent for the new bathroom can I use 1.5"?
    • Where should I connect the new waste drain into the existing plumbing? My plan is to run it vertical into the crawl to a long sweep 90 then have it wye into the existing waste pipe just before that one makes it's 90 down towards the septic
    • Do you see any other issues with my plan? Some of the runs are pretty long - the distance from the tub drain to the waste stack will be about 14' of pipe
    My apologies if this is too much info or too cluttered, please ask if something is unclear.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  2. Stuff

    Stuff Well-Known Member

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    Mar 7, 2013
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    What you have now is appalling. It needs gutted and redone from scratch. Wasn't it flagged by your house inspector before you bought it? Find a real, licensed plumber and get their opinion on how to proceed.
     
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  4. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

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    Aug 3, 2021
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    Central New York
    No the home inspector did not flag anything plumbing related. The crawlspace was atrocious though so I doubt he went all the way back there to really look hard at it. I've since cleaned the crawlspace and put up the vapor barrier in the pics.

    The current installation does seem unorthodox to me, but I'm not a pro. What is appalling to you about the current installation? FWIW in the 9 months that I've lived here I have not noticed any issues with the plumbing, other than maybe the toilet water level being a little low.
     
  5. WorthFlorida

    WorthFlorida The wife is still training me.

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  6. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

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    Aug 3, 2021
    Location:
    Central New York
    Yes that's duct tape. Would you believe me if I told you that this house was built by the town building inspector and he lived here for 40 years up until I bought it from him last year? Don't get me started on some of the other things I've had to fix here.

    I will be re-doing the downstairs bathroom in a couple of months, but right now my priority is the upstairs bath. Given that the plumbing seems to be functioning fine now (and I haven't noticed any foul odors in the living space) I'd really rather leave it as-is for a little bit longer and just knock it all out at once.

    So what I'd plan to do is minimize the interaction of this new upstairs bath with the existing plumbing - separate vents, tie it into the existing waste stack at the very end.

    Do you have comments or recommendations on my plan for the upstairs bath?
     
  7. Jeff H Young

    Jeff H Young In the Trades

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    i dont know what you got going on? why is there 2 waste lines to septic? and you dont use s traps, but this is all doable just kind of hard to make sence of it so far . looked like the duct tape was to protect the plastic from the metal plumbers tape not unusual use what you got sometimes .
    kind of hard to get started on this but you got help here . I really dont know if the floor needs 10 inches to get that in I suspect less .
     
  8. WorthFlorida

    WorthFlorida The wife is still training me.

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    A cabin in the woods a lot gets by and may never had a permit pulled for changes other than the original build. Not being critical to your work but this happens all the time. I have not yet trusted any building inspector's work and they only protect themselves and if you read the contract, they're not responsible for missed items or damage. I know mortgage companies require it but it is best to hire your own licensed electrician and plumber to do an inspection. Each can give an estimate on what it takes and cost to fix things if needed. Along with the house inspection it can provide a bargaining chip.

    Just looking at this picture, these are question most will want to know. Do the two stacks joint on the other side of the wall or separate to a septic tank? The drain line on the wall and the other from the wall, what do they serve? A kitchen on one and the other a bathroom? Just because you stated everything seems to be fine and no drainage problems doesn't mean it's correct. I wonder what electrical stuff has been hacked? BTW, I love Central NY. Used to have a home in Saratoga Springs.
     
  9. WorthFlorida

    WorthFlorida The wife is still training me.

    Joined:
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    Orlando, Florida
    Treat the new bath as a separate group and run a new vent through the roof. Tie into the the existing stack at the end is the way to go.

    Here is another helpful guide;
    https://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/..._-_helpful_hints_residential_construction.pdf
     
  10. Stuff

    Stuff Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    You noticed the main vent is too small.
    Do you have two feeds to your septic system or do you have two separate septic systems?
    The horizontal connection between the two systems appears to be trying to vent the toilet.
    Left AAV isn't effective as is tied in too low.
    Right AAV trying to be vent for tub and washer.
    Need long 90 elbows going from vertical to horizontal
    A couple of san-tees on their back.
    Purple primer missing on many connections.

    A good primer: https://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/..._-_helpful_hints_residential_construction.pdf

    What's going on with the drooping electrical cables and open box? Extra grey cable wrapped and shoved out of the way?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2021
  11. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2021
    Location:
    Central New York
    Thanks for the replies.

    I don't know the purpose of the separate drain lines. On the other side of that wall is another crawl space, but the lines go under ground so I can't see if they connect. They must both run to the septic though.

    Here is another pic of the setup

    existing stack 123.JPG

    And here is a view from a different angle of that WC & Sink connection, along with the vent

    existing stack 1234.JPG
     
  12. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

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    Central New York
    Hah, thanks for breaking it down for me. The septic was replaced a few years ago by a legit company as part of the NYC DEC watershed. I assume all drains are going into the new septic, though I suppose it is possible that the shower, washer, and kitchen sink are going into the old septic - maybe that's okay because they're gray water?

    I did notice evidence of small leakage from one of those drain pipes, probably from the incomplete primer job. I'll be replacing all of that down the line.

    re: the horizontal connection venting the toilet - The toilet seems to be vented a little higher up the line before it gets to that waste stack. Maybe they just didn't know what the hell they were doing and just put AAVs all over the place as some kind of a bandaid.

    Extra electrical, I don't know yet, I haven't made it that far in, the wire is cut and shoved out of the way - it may be live. There has been a lot of jerry rigging done on this house over the years clearly.
     
  13. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

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    Aug 3, 2021
    Location:
    Central New York
    Thank you. Do you have any input for the venting of my drawing for my proposed setup? (I meant to draw p-traps by the way, not s-traps)

    overhead view of upstairs bath.JPG

    IMG_1986.jpg
     
  14. Stuff

    Stuff Well-Known Member

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    Mar 7, 2013
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    A valve on the drain. I wonder if that stays closed until the septic backs up. You then open the valve so everything (waste, no soil?) goes to the other which just dumps to a dry well.
     
  15. Jeff H Young

    Jeff H Young In the Trades

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    why are the 2 mains connected together and a valve with upside down fittings and 3 90s at the top. mentioning these as a good reason to just rip it all out . might have some sort of grey water system in there . bath tub and shower wont be properly vented way its drawn having trouble reading your drawing just letting you know things I can
     
  16. Michael Young

    Michael Young In the Trades

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    Sep 20, 2016
    Location:
    North Carolina

    yeah. a little bit cluttered. it looks like it'll work just fine. I don't think you need to pull the additional relief vent. The lavatory is already a wet-vent. if you already have a 3" vent going through the roof, don't reduce it. If you're installing a new vent through the roof, you can legally get away with a 1-1/2" vent. But if it's not going to make your life any more difficult, I would install a full port 3" vent all the way through the rof and I would install a 3" wall cleanout in the attic before I made my penetration.
     
  17. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    IL
    On post #12 pictures, I think the two vents need to be on the tub and on the vanity. The tub vent would be after the U of the trap before the trap arm turns down and before joining the shower drainage, but at least 3 or 4 inches after the U. That vent would be vertical, and would probably be at the wall.

    Washer standpipe is gone?
     
  18. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2021
    Location:
    Central New York
    Thanks for the help. I went ahead and did another, cleaner drawing and also revised my plan a bit based on feedback.

    D788E7D3-AD15-438F-93E2-E38DE1F5EB23.jpeg

    so the tub is vented before it joins with the shower and the sink is vented as well. The toilet wet vents through the sink’s vent.

    What I would like to do (as I tried to show in the new drawing) is tie the upstairs bath group vent vent into the existing vent for the downstairs bath. Reminder - that vent runs into the “attic” near my new upstairs bath. That pipe becomes a 3” pipe and I would tie this upstairs bath group vent into that 3” section.

    I don’t see a problem with this as my soil stack for this upstairs bath group is separate from the vent stack so no waste is going into that vent.

    Also as an aside I figured out why the downstairs bath vent goes from 1.5” to that 3” pipe. It’s because the 1.5” risks freezing shut once it exits the roof, which the larger diameter 3” won’t.

    Does this look good to y’all?
     
  19. Jeff H Young

    Jeff H Young In the Trades

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    92346
    I figured that vent was increased for freeze protection and the tape was just to isolate it fronm the metal strap.

    I expect the system to function without problem as drawn.
     
  20. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

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    Aug 3, 2021
    Location:
    Central New York
    Super, thanks for the eyes and the feedback everyone.
     
  21. Jay_NY

    Jay_NY New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2021
    Location:
    Central New York
    Friend came up this weekend and we knocked out a bunch of the drain lines, got the waste pipe run through the downstairs bath and connected to the main stack.

    I also changed my plan and decided to just vent the sink straight out of the roof rather than trying to add 15’ of pipe and curve it around to join up with the existing vent stack.

    Here’s where we are now with the new upstairs bath:


    The waste pipes are running along the floor, the vent pipes will street 45 into the wall then street 45 vertical. The long pipe closest to you in the pic is for the shower drain, it’s not cemented in - it will be cut shorter but is just in place to get the height of the platform.
    DFAB9AAC-6BA7-4B59-8AD1-8FFC587D1CAA.jpeg


    The new waste pipe (the lower 3” pipe) tying into the main.

    0A28379F-4B24-4AD1-B37D-FBAD6A8DFA0B.jpeg



    New waste pipe running down through the downstairs bath. This bath will get demoed and redone in a few months - I’ll shorten the vanity, move the toilet to the right a few inches and box in that waste pipe

    2D1221CF-7CB8-4356-A6BF-7B60E710572D.jpeg

    New (3”) vent in roof - it will be reduced to 2” and the entire vent will run inside the wall. The ceiling will get 7” of r6 Foamboard and headboard attached over that with exposed rafters - all painted white.

    B98D1598-B487-41E5-A108-B649AD740997.jpeg

    I covered the vent with duct tape for now so rain doesn’t come in.

    E8FE7A23-6F2D-4B1A-AFA8-59F04672215A.jpeg
    Let me know if you see anything weird (other than the existing waste stack in the crawl - I notice the bottom connections aren’t even cemented in)
     
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