Improve water pressure/flow second floor

[Rldev]

I'm sure this is a fairly straight forward question, so here is my situation. My second floor had new plumbing installed 10 years ago. It is all 3/4" pex b with 1/2" take offs to plumbing fixtures.

The PSI on my system is set to 70psi(static pressure adjusted from 85).

Flow is roughly 12GPM.

So my problem is like many others, my shower takes significant a hit, when someone flushes the toilet or turns on the washing machine or sink. It's still useable, but not what I'd like. It seems to be a flow/pipe issue. I have high pressure low flow shower heads(2gpm) and they work great if nothing else is turned on.

I understand the how plex fittings have more restriction and less flow, but I don't think a toilet and a 2gpm shower should be so noticeable. Anyway, I was looking at pictures of the plumbing I took when this work was being done. I notice that there is only two 3/4" pex homeruns going to my second floor(Hot & Cold). They Teed off the homeruns that continue in two different directions. One run goes to the master bath and the other goes to the small bath and laundry area.

Question:

Could I expect a real improvement if I ran two more homeruns and remove the Tees and connect with elbows? I would then connect both sets of homeruns with 2 pex manifolds with new shutoff valves in the basement where they tie in 3/4" copper. I have good access to do this and it would only require a moderate cutout and patch in drywall. My house flow and high pressure should be enough, NO? Thanks for your input.

 

[Reach4]

Monitor the pressure at the hot water tank drain valve while you flush toilets etc.

Brady 2 in. Brass Pressure Gauge 100 psi Mfr# BTGIND CS-NL - Ace Hardware

For years, Campbell Manufacturing has been North America's most comprehensive supplier of parts and products for residential and light-duty commercial well systems. Other Campbell Water Systems products which may be of interest to environmental equipment and Supply customers include the...

www.acehardware.com

Water Source Water Test Pressure Gauge WSPGH100 - The Home Depot

This 100 psi Water Pressure Test Gauge attaches to a garden hose bib to verify water pressure or check for leaks in the system. Glass casing provides an easy to read display. It's easy to install.

www.homedepot.com

A new home run from the WH for a bathroom is not going to improve the pressure drop that occurs before the water heater.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Rldev]

Monitor the pressure at the hot water tank drain valve while you flush toilets etc.

Brady 2 in. Brass Pressure Gauge 100 psi Mfr# BTGIND CS-NL - Ace Hardware

For years, Campbell Manufacturing has been North America's most comprehensive supplier of parts and products for residential and light-duty commercial well systems. Other Campbell Water Systems products which may be of interest to environmental equipment and Supply customers include the...

www.acehardware.com

Water Source Water Test Pressure Gauge WSPGH100 - The Home Depot

This 100 psi Water Pressure Test Gauge attaches to a garden hose bib to verify water pressure or check for leaks in the system. Glass casing provides an easy to read display. It's easy to install.

www.homedepot.com

A new home run from the WH for a bathroom is not going to improve the pressure drop that occurs before the water heater.

OK so connect pressure guage to the drain valve, open the valve, look at the pressure and then flush and monitor reading while toilet is filling correct? I just so happen to have a toilet right near to the water heater.

 

[Reach4]

Yes. You could try bigger flows too, but the toilet fill would give you good info.

 

[Rldev]

PRV: Set to 70 PSI
Psi 70 Static
Drops to 48 psi with flush

My water heater, expansion tank and prv are all less than 2 years old. Not sure what the pressure on the expansion tank is. I'll have to check. I also have another expansion tank on the line which is 10 years old I think. Not sure if this is helpful, but I'm just trying to provide as much infor as possible.

 

[Reach4]

PRV: Set to 70 PSI
Psi 70 Static
Drops to 48 psi with flush

Nice, in the sense that you have identified a clear problem.

1. See if the PRV has a screen, and if so, clean it.
2. See if you have a cartridge filter after the PRV, and if so, replace the cartridge.
3. Check for other obstructions.
4. If no other things detected as a problem replace the PRV.

What model is your PRV? They all have some extra pressure drop with higher flow, but some are more than others. Find the documentation on yours to see what to expect from that model.

 

[Rldev]

Nice, in the sense that you have identified a clear problem.

1. See if the PRV has a screen, and if so, clean it.
2. See if you have a cartridge filter after the PRV, and if so, replace the cartridge.
3. Check for other obstructions.
4. If no other things detected as a problem replace the PRV.

What model is your PRV? They all have some extra pressure drop with higher flow, but some are more than others. Find the documentation on yours to see what to expect from that model.

What do you mean by cartridge filter? You mean like a Big Blue? I have a bunch of stuff. Water softener and 2 20 inch big Blues. I have pressure gauges before and after the Big Blue Filters.

Since I assume you meant water filters, I just removed my KDF Filter which I suspected would have an impact as opposed to the CTO Filter after which was replaced in Jan. It definitely has an impact, but I'm not sure I'm out of the woods here. So with the KDF removed, new results:

Psi 71 Static
With flush tested 6 times
Drops to 62 psi pre CTO Filter
Drops to 60/61 PSI post CTO Filter

My PRV which is recent is a Caleffi 535651HA which 3/4" has a max flow rate of 12.5GPM. I did recently measure roughly 12GPM at my house. I can't for the life of understand the pressure drop chart, but it is located here:

https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/01265_NA.pdf

 

[Reach4]

What do you mean by cartridge filter? You mean like a Big Blue? I have a bunch of stuff. Water softener and 2 20 inch big Blues. I have pressure gauges before and after the Big Blue Filters.

Yes. So given those gauges, what pressure do they read when the toilet is filling? See where the bulk of the pressure drop occurs.

Also confirm they all read 70 with no flow.

I am rooting for the problem being that the big blue cartridge needs replacing.

Always have a replacement o-ring before opening the Big Blue housing. You may or may not be able to reuse the old o-ring. Also have silicone grease. I like Dow/Molykote 111 for very lightly lubing the o-ring. Wear gloves to make cleaning easy. The grease is not harmful to your hands.

Housing is for a 10x4.5 cartridge?

 

[Rldev]

Yes. So given those gauges, what pressure do they read when the toilet is filling? See where the bulk of the pressure drop occurs.

Also confirm they all read 70 with no flow.

I am rooting for the problem being that the big blue cartridge needs replacing.

Always have a replacement o-ring before opening the Big Blue housing. You may or may not be able to reuse the old o-ring. Also have silicone grease. I like Dow/Molykote 111 for very lightly lubing the o-ring. Wear gloves to make cleaning easy. The grease is not harmful to your hands.

Housing is for a 10x4.5 cartridge?

Please re read my post above. I made some edits that will answer your questions. I have all the goodies for the Big Blues, thanks for the tip.

 

[Reach4]

Psi 71 Static
With flush tested 6 times
Drops to 62 psi pre CTO Filter
Drops to 60/61 PSI post CTO Filter

My PRV which is recent is a Caleffi 535651HA which 3/4" has a max flow rate of 12.5GPM. I did recently measure roughly 12GPM at my house. I can't for the life of understand the pressure drop chart, but it is located here:

https://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/media/external-file/01265_NA.pdf

Graph 2 says that if the flow is 3 gpm, expect about 5.4 psi drop from 75 to about 69.6 for a 3/4 inch version. You drop to 62.

The specifications say "Stainless steel filter, mesh size 0.51 mm (35 mesh). "
So I expect there is a mesh (screen) and that may need cleaning.

PDF also says

Removable self-contained cartridge
The cartridge containing the diaphragm, filter, seat, shuttle and
compensating piston is a pre-assembled self-contained unit with a
cover, and can be removed to facilitate inspection and maintenance
procedures.

So I would pull the cartridge, and try to clean the filter/mesh

 

[Rldev]

well keep in mind my CTO Filter sucks 1-2

The CTO Filter is 1-2 psi drop so it's a bit closer to normal rating. I will pull and inspect.
This doesn't sound as bad now. Now whether there is a discernible difference in real world usage is another story.
Is it fair to assume that 5.4 psi drop at 3gpm is a good number for a house PRV? I'm wondering if the model/size PRV is a bottle neck in some way. It's rated for 12.5GMP Max. I suppose I would have to know what the GPM is prior to a PRV.
I think my neighbor doesn't have a PRV on his house which is crazy since we used to have 100 psi from the street not so long ago. But I will investigate further with him as well.

 

[Reach4]

Some put in a 1 inch instead of a 3/4 to get less drop.

I have looked for showerheads or handheld shower that has a 2.5 gpm flow regulator built in. This makes the output of the shower more consistent in the face of variable incoming water pressure. You would have thought that would be easy to find.

A flow regulator is different from a flow restrictor.

 

[Rldev]

Some put in a 1 inch instead of a 3/4 to get less drop.

I have looked for showerheads or handheld shower that has a 2.5 gpm flow regulator built in. This makes the output of the shower more consistent in the face of variable incoming water pressure. You would have thought that would be easy to find.

A flow regulator is different from a flow restrictor.

How much less of a drop can I expect with a one inch? So one inch prv reduced to 3/4 at the fittings. Man this would be the third PRV I'd be purchasing in the past 12 years. I have a Watts N45BM1 that the Caleffi replaced. I thought it was shot, but I don't think that was the case and it was another issue. It's one inch, but it was a bit noisy to be honest. The Caleffi is quiet and a nice design and cartridges are reasonable enough. I'll have to clean my cartridge, test and investigate my neighbor's water supply this weekend. Thanks for the help as always I will report back with my findings.

 

[Reach4]

Try reading Graph 2.

Can you see the call-outs that identify which line is 3/4, 1, and 1-1/4?

 

[Rldev]

Yes I can see them. I removed the Caleffi cartridge and it was clean, but I rinsed it anyway and nothing changed. I was looking at charts for Zurn and Watts prvs. I will say the Zurn 70XL one inch has very low pressure drop numbers compared to the others under smaller demand. Many reviews confirm this as well. What am I missing here?

https://files.zurn.com/spec-sheets/reg-70xl.pdf

These numbers are significantly better than the competition and considerably better than what I have. Then again, my unit is not performing to spec. I wonder if it would make a noticeable difference in my house. It might be worth a shot before going the booster pump route. What are your thoughts?

 

[Fitter30]

Every devise has a pressure drop. Softener 10lbs , filter clean 2-4 lbs, prv 5 lbs and are all the valves full port? 3/4" pex i.d. is .681" fitting are even smaller. Check pressure drop at incoming and right after softener and filter.

 

[Valveman]

Yes I can see them. I removed the Caleffi cartridge and it was clean, but I rinsed it anyway and nothing changed. I was looking at charts for Zurn and Watts prvs. I will say the Zurn 70XL one inch has very low pressure drop numbers compared to the others under smaller demand. Many reviews confirm this as well. What am I missing here?

https://files.zurn.com/spec-sheets/reg-70xl.pdf

These numbers are significantly better than the competition and considerably better than what I have. Then again, my unit is not performing to spec. I wonder if it would make a noticeable difference in my house. It might be worth a shot before going the booster pump route. What are your thoughts?

I wouldn't add a booster pump until I tried it without the prv. All prv's have reduced pressure fall off, which means the higher the flow the lower the pressure.

But I am all for a booster pump when needed.

 

[Rldev]

Every devise has a pressure drop. Softener 10lbs , filter clean 2-4 lbs, prv 5 lbs and are all the valves full port? 3/4" pex i.d. is .681" fitting are even smaller. Check pressure drop at incoming and right after softener and filter.

I have a little pressure drop from my softener. I'm testing it in bypass and have gauges before and after. I had one filter that had a large pressure drop, so I removed it.

 

[Bannerman]

I'm testing it in bypass and have gauges before and after. I had one filter that had a large pressure drop, so I removed it.

As your softener is supplied with municipal water, unless there is visible sediment or rust particles, no cartridge filter should be needed nor usually recommended before the softener. Any small particles which enter the softener from the municipal supply, will become backwashed out to drain during each regeneration cycle.

As municipal water will be chlorinated or will be disinfected with chloramine (chlorine + ammonia) then a backwashing carbon filtration system located before the softener would be advisable, to remove the chlorine/chloramine, as such chemicals will rapidly degrade softener resin. Softener resin which is chlorine/chloramine damaged, will commonly result in high flow restriction through the softener, which bypassing the softener will immediately and substantially increase the flow rate to fixtures.

If plain chlorine is utilized, a backwashing system containing at minimum 1.5 ft3 GAC (granular activated carbon) is recommended for a point-of-entry application, but a larger quantity of GAC will provide additional contact time to permit a greater amount of contaminants to be effectively removed.

As chloramine is more difficult to remove than plain chlorine, a backwashing system containing 2ft3 of Catalytic Carbon media is the minimum size recommended.

As either type of carbon requires sufficient contact time to adsorb and catalyze contaminants, the above quantities are minimum recommendations, with a larger quantity of either type of carbon offering further contaminant removal benefits, particularly while the flow rate is high as is likely to occur when multiple fixtures/appliances are utilized at the same time.

 

[Rldev]

Here are more detailed pressure drop numbers. Note I can bypass everything except the PRV.

Pressure drops on system with filter and water softener bypassed
Toilet 6-11 psi
Laundry Sink 5 - 11psi
Both 12 - 14psi

Pressure drops via water softener only
Toilet 10 - 12 psi
Laundry Sink 10 -12psi
Both 18 - 21 psi

Pressure Drops with filters and water softener
Toilet
Laundry Sink 10 - 12psi
Both 19 - 22psi