City Water, Low Static Pressure and Low Flow

[Rldev]

My cousin is moving into a house that has extremely low flow and low static pressure. I'm just trying to help them out in order to make sure they make good decisions and I have lived in the area for 25 years. The water source is municipal and they came out and basically said there's nothing they can do since the house is on a hill and not far below the town water tanks. "Add a pump, they said". The requirements in NJ are low, so the town isn't going to do much. By 2031 they are required by law to replace the main line which they suspect is galvanized, who knows when this will ever be done.
I measured the usual suspects:

Incoming main: 3/4" (probably galvanized)
water pressure: 23 PSI
water flow: 4 GPM

I noticed that they have an old GE 1/2 hp Jet pump with Richdel SR-1 starter relay for the irrigation system. I have no idea if this setup is even working. The town water is also very hard(25 GPG), so they will need a water softener and some filtering.
At first I thought they could just add another pump and a good water softener.. But very low flow and pressure complicates this matter andleads me here(as always). I welcome your thoughts.

 

[Reach4]

water pressure: 23 PSI
water flow: 2 GPM

23PSI while the water is flowing at 2 GPM, or 23 PSI static pressure? If 23 static, the pressure while water is flowing would be much lower.

For a softener to backwash, you are probably going to need a storage tank and a pump.
https://www.plastic-mart.com/storage/ I would say at least 100 gallons, and probably bigger.

Filling the tank would be via a float valve or a solenoid-operated valve controlled by a float switch.

The pressure pump would have a pressure switch and pressure tank.

If you can put a 1/2 HP submersible pump horizontally into a tank, with a flow inducer, it could put out a lot of water quickly -- at least twice what a 1/2 HP jet pump would do. However the 1/2 HP jet pump may be sufficient, and it can suck from the tank, rather than having to be inside of the tank.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Rldev]

23PSI while the water is flowing at 2 GPM, or 23 PSI static pressure? If 23 static, the pressure while water is flowing would be much lower.

For a softener to backwash, you are probably going to need a storage tank and a pump.
https://www.plastic-mart.com/storage/ I would say at least 100 gallons, and probably bigger.

Filling the tank would be via a float valve or a solenoid-operated valve controlled by a float switch.

The pressure pump would have a pressure switch and pressure tank.

If you can put a 1/2 HP submersible pump horizontally into a tank, with a flow inducer, it could put out a lot of water quickly -- at least twice what a 1/2 HP jet pump would do. However the 1/2 HP jet pump may be sufficient, and it can suck from the tank, rather than having to be inside of the tank.

23 static. Should I tested it whilst running water at another outlet? Tested with a pressure gauge at nearest hose bib and washer outlet adjacent to the water meter. All water off, except the pressure valve.

 

[Reach4]

You could for your curiosity, but we already know that it will be insufficient to backwash a softener. To test, run the cold on the tub while checking the pressure at the hose bib.

Is this house in the city limits? If your friend is buying the house, and plans to do much irrigation, $5000 to $25000 for a well could be worthwhile in the long run. However the city or county might forbid you to get a well. They would like to sell their expensive water.

 

[Rldev]

You could for your curiosity, but we already know that it will be insufficient to backwash a softener. To test, run the cold on the tub while checking the pressure at the hose bib.

Is this house in the city limits? If your friend is buying the house, and plans to do much irrigation, $5000 to $25000 for a well could be worthwhile in the long run. However the city or county might forbid you to get a well. They would like to sell their expensive water.

Yes the house is in city limits. Water is supplied by American Water. My house is supplied by the same company for water, but I am a town over and much lower. I get much better flow and pressure(85 PSI, used to be 100 not long ago)

There is already a pump for irrigation, although how well could that possibly work without a tank?. It didn't dawn on me as to why they would have a pump for irrigation and not the house and why it wouldn't have a water softener at least. The answer most likely is that they didn't want to spend the money and/or give up the space. Given what this house sold for, I can't imagine money was the issue. But how can any house these days function with such slow and low water. I can't even install an RO system without something being done.

 

[GReynolds929]

I have low water pressure to my property and United Utilities has confirmed that the reason is due to the fact that I am on a private supply which connects to the main a significant distance away. My supply goes back to a 63mm main using a 32mm pipe and the run is approximately a third of a mile away. The options of upgrading the supply look to be costly due to the distances involved and so I was wondering whether there any sensible alternatives I could consider?? A pump for example?

You need to start your own thread.

 

[Valveman]

My cousin is moving into a house that has extremely low flow and low static pressure. I'm just trying to help them out in order to make sure they make good decisions and I have lived in the area for 25 years. The water source is municipal and they came out and basically said there's nothing they can do since the house is on a hill and not far below the town water tanks. "Add a pump, they said". The requirements in NJ are low, so the town isn't going to do much. By 2031 they are required by law to replace the main line which they suspect is galvanized, who knows when this will ever be done.
I measured the usual suspects:

Incoming main: 3/4" (probably galvanized)
water pressure: 23 PSI
water flow: 4 GPM

I noticed that they have an old GE 1/2 hp Jet pump with Richdel SR-1 starter relay for the irrigation system. I have no idea if this setup is even working. The town water is also very hard(25 GPG), so they will need a water softener and some filtering.
At first I thought they could just add another pump and a good water softener.. But very low flow and pressure complicates this matter andleads me here(as always). I welcome your thoughts.

4 GPM is probably because that is all the faucet will put out. I would try opening a larger valve or multiple faucets at the same time. If you can measure 3-4 GPM from three different faucets open at the same time, the city can supply the 10-12 GPM needed. If you can't get 10-12 GPM from the city meter a storage tank is needed. I would consider the city pressure to be close to zero the same as if you have a storage tank feeding the booster. So, the booster will be the same size either way. You can try connecting the booster pump directly to the city main, and I think it will work. But if it is starving for water the storage tank will need to be added.

 

[Valveman]

I have low water pressure to my property and United Utilities has confirmed that the reason is due to the fact that I am on a private supply which connects to the main a significant distance away. My supply goes back to a 63mm main using a 32mm pipe and the run is approximately a third of a mile away. The options of upgrading the supply look to be costly due to the distances involved and so I was wondering whether there any sensible alternatives I could consider?? A pump for example?

Yes, please start another thread. Need more info on elevations.

 

[Rldev]

4 GPM is probably because that is all the faucet will put out. I would try opening a larger valve or multiple faucets at the same time. If you can measure 3-4 GPM from three different faucets open at the same time, the city can supply the 10-12 GPM needed. If you can't get 10-12 GPM from the city meter a storage tank is needed. I would consider the city pressure to be close to zero the same as if you have a storage tank feeding the booster. So, the booster will be the same size either way. You can try connecting the booster pump directly to the city main, and I think it will work. But if it is starving for water the storage tank will need to be added.

View attachment 104378
View attachment 104379

It was actually 2 GPM from the laundry hose bib and outside hose bib. These are half inch lines. So I assume over 3/4 inch, the flow would be almost double. That's where the 4GPM figure comes from. I'm going to retest. Running multiple water outlets at the same time. I will report back. Thanks for replying.

 

[Rldev]

I took Valveman's recommendation and cranked 6 water taps and retested. Your assumption was correct. They definitely have 10-12 GPM flow and 22 PSI. So a water holding tank is not needed. So now I just need to figure out what to buy.

They have an existing GE 1/2 HP jet pump right under the main, but it is only routed to the sprinkler system which has a pressure switch and a start relay which connects to a rainbird controller. I figured I would test it out, it is annoyingly loud and doesn't do enough for the sprinkler system. They were struggling mightily. And there were only 4 spray heads per zone. So not enough pressure, maybe the pump is in decline, whatever. I would like to use one pump for everything.

Phase 1
I definitely need a quieter pump setup and would like to get the pressure up from 22 PSI to 60 PSI if possible. With some repiping, we can make some room in this closet for your csv kit and a replacement Jet pump. I'm open to different pumps, but sound is definitely high on the list of importance. They know all pumps will make noise.

Phase 2 I need to install a water a 2 ft3 water softener and 2 20 inch Big Blue filters. I know what I'm installing here, but the layout may affect what pump to choose. This equipment needs to go into the adjacent garage as there is no room near the water meter for this equipment. For where they want this equipment installed, You are looking at another 50ft - 60ft ft of 3/4" copper with a handful, elbows, connectors, shutoffs and a couple of bypass loops. Also keep in mind the gas water heater is in another room which adds to the maze of pipes. It's a 100yr old house so there's not much flexibility.

So basically what are my pump options?(Only quality pumps) How much horsepower is needed for this setup?
Since one pump will power everything what do I do about the starter relay on the irrigation system?

Thank you all for your help. I have learned so much.

 

[Reach4]

Phase 1
I definitely need a quieter pump setup and would like to get the pressure up from 22 PSI to 60 PSI if possible. With some repiping, we can make some room in this closet for your csv kit and a replacement Jet pump. I'm open to different pumps, but sound is definitely high on the list of importance. They know all pumps will make noise.

F&W CJ103051AB 1/2 HP single stage booster looks up to the job.

https://www.zoro.com/flint-walling-...ressure-cj103051ab/i/G8834402/#specifications When it says pressure in the tables, that is the pressure above the input pressure. Use the 5 ft lift row in the table on page 5.

There are also more powerful choices, but I don't see a need for more power.

https://flintandwalling.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/02/130441-CJ101-CJ103-Instructions.pdf has performance tables. Page 3 has a diagram of a typical installation at the top.

I don't have experience with such pumps. I would think that would be quieter than a jet pump, but I am not sure.

Phase 2 I need to install a water a 2 ft3 water softener and 2 20 inch Big Blue filters. I know what I'm installing here, but the layout may affect what pump to choose. This equipment needs to go into the adjacent garage as there is no room near the water meter for this equipment. For where they want this equipment installed, You are looking at another 50ft - 60ft ft of 3/4" copper with a handful, elbows, connectors, shutoffs and a couple of bypass loops. Also keep in mind the gas water heater is in another room which adds to the maze of pipes. It's a 100yr old house so there's not much flexibility.

I don't think that would have much effect on pump selection. Such a softener only needs 3 gpm at 30 psi or more.

 

[Valveman]

Bearings are probably bad, which is why the old pump is so loud. But yeah, all jet pumps make noise. While a 1/2HP may barely do the job, a CSV allows you to install as large a pump as you want and still make it work for any flow rate needed. I would probably step up to a 1HP like the J10S and use a PK1A to control it so there would be strong constant pressure at any flow rate needed. The PK1A will control the pump for sprinklers, house use, or backflushing a softener. The pump start relay in the sprinkler controller will not be needed.

 

[Rldev]

Thank you both, do you think the additional 50-60ft of plumbing would cause a problem for a 1HP?

 

[Reach4]

Thank you both, do you think the additional 50-60ft of plumbing would cause a problem for a 1HP?

http://irrigation.wsu.edu/Content/Calculators/General/Pipeline-Pressure-Loss.php is an easy-to-use pressure drop calculator. Add some extra distance to compensate for elbows etc.

ID for type L 3/4 inch copper is 0.785 inch. ID for 3/4 inch PEX is 0.681inch.

HP is not a good measure of the pumping ability of a pump.

 

[Valveman]

50'-60' elevation would require an extra 25 PSI at the pump. 50'-60' distance doesn't require much pressure to make up for. The flow rate (max 12 GPM) at the time and the size of pipe determines the pressure loss in the pipe as shown in the charts that Reach linked. But when using a CSV the flow rate is determined by the amount of water being used at any given time. When only a 3 GPM shower is being used, the CSV makes the pump produce exactly 3 GPM, and the friction loss in pipe is much less than if four showers are open using the full 12 GPM.

 

[Rldev]

Understood and thank you for your help. Should there be any concern using a cast iron pump as opposed to stainless steel for house water? Or are these pumps just cast iron bodies with stainless interiors and connectors? I know the cast iron pumps are generally quieter.