hot water not soft. cold water is soft

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Lucky

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got a kinetico installed a year ago. since then hasnt been steady soft water. they came out for the 4th or 5th time a few months ago and figured out the initial setting wasnt right. they actually tested my hard water and set it with a new disk. it has been using MUCH more salt than the past few months. which is a good thing. i thought it was too little anyway.

i waited a few months till now and in the past they told me test the hot water because it told the historical water softness. so today i tested 4 at home and went to the store and it tested 4 as well. then he said something in the hot water heater could cause it to be hard. but he agreed even then should be under 2.

i did go home and cold tested perfectly soft (hatch kit). so maybe he's right. something in the water heater causing the issue? i notice it in the shower that it's not soft water. annoying

or is there any chance the old hard water still didnt come out of the softener since november?

i have a triangle indirect to my boiler and it was installed 2008. i literally have done zero to it all those years. even when my old softener blew and there was resin everywhere the plumber told me i didnt have to flush the hot water tank because the nature of it is it's always flushing itself. no clue if this is true. but apparently my hot is not soft but my cold is. why?

i did call triangle and he said no chance it's the hot water heater but he seemed just anxious to get me off the phone.
 

Reach4

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Old water heater may have had hardness materials precipitated in it, and they are slowly dissolving into the hot water.

Have you flushed your WH? Maybe some solids will come out. To flush, run several gallons of water out of the drain under pressure. Maybe look to see if that includes something other than clear water.

Also, if you drain the first drain water off into a bucket, after not using hot water for several hours, you might find that water hardness elevated above 4. Just a speculation.

See pictures on https://terrylove.com/forums/index....ith-particles-of-some-sort-please-help.69923/
See photo on #17 of https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/salt-dose-programming-on-clack-unit.64098/
 
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Bannerman

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You said the hot water tested 4. To confirm, is that 4 grains per gallon hardness?

What is the hardness of the incoming raw water (before any treatment)?

What is the hardness level of the softened water that exits from your home's cold water faucets?

Suggest tracing the piping route to your WH to ensure the water softener is actually supplying the water heater with softened cold water.

If soft cold water is supplied to the water heater, there could be a mixing valve on the hot water piping after the WH that maybe mixing hard cold water with the hot so as to supply lower temperature hot water to the home's hot faucets. If so, the cold water feed to the mixing valve will need to be replumbed to supply soft cold water to the mixing valve.
 

Lucky

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never flushed the water heater. this procedure sounded like more than i could do
4.1. Filling the Inner (Domestic Water) Tank
• Never use water heater unless inner and
outer tanks are completely filled with water.
• Inner tank must be completely filled and
pressurized before pressurizing outer tank.
1. Close domestic water drain valve.
2. Open domestic water isolation valves for water
heater.
3. Vent air from inner (domestic water) tank by open-
ing nearest hot water faucet. Fill domestic water
tank completely by allowing water to run until
there is a constant flow of water.
4. Close hot water faucet.
4.2. Filling the Outer (Boiler Water) Tank
• Never use water heater unless inner and
outer tanks are completely filled with water.
• Inner tank must be completely filled and
pressurized before pressurizing outer tank.
1. Close boiler water drain valve at boiler water outlet
of water heater.
2. Open water heater’s boiler water isolation valves.
3. Allow air to escape from outer (boiler water) tank by
opening manual air vent, located on top of water
heater.
4. Follow instructions furnished with boiler to fill with
water.
5. When tank is full, and air stops escaping, close the
manual air vent.
6. If antifreeze is used in boiler water, check concen-
tration. Boiler water (including additives) must be
practically non-toxic, having toxicity rating or class
of 1, as listed in Clinical Toxicology of
 

Lucky

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4 grains and plumbing is good. is all in my util room next to my kitchen and its just a pipe out of the heater that feeds the house. no mixing. cold water was 0 when hot water was 4 the day i tested it.

2021 township water report says Average of 252 ppm (14.8 grains per gallon)
here are all details of all invoices..long but informative

2-17-22 was date of purchase. dug up all my receipts

3/14/22 order was: | Water Softener: Cycled Water Softener / Treated hardness level - Cold 0 / Treated hardness level - Hot 2 / Checked Brine Draw. Dechlorinator: Chlorine level after dechlor 0. || Checked all the functions of the water softener and everything seems good. Unit is metering perfectly. Unit is drawing a good brine in backwashing great. Salt seemed a little bit hard in the tank and possibly was bridge but not much. We will return in about three weeks to do another follow up just to make sure everything is good

3-28 replaced bunch of stuff
Service: || Water Softener: Cycled Water Softener / Treated hardness level -

Cold 0 / Treated hardness level - Hot 0 / Checked Brine Draw / Lubricated
All Seals / Replaced Softener Valve Parts / Unit was giving salty water.
Salt settings were all good. Checked unit thoroughly inside head and found
no debris

9/1/22 Customer brought water in to be tested for hardness. Water was hot and it tested with 13-14 grains of hardness. We installed it back Feb and it seems to be a continual issue then they came out and said Cold water soft. Hot water 3 gr hard. Cleaned mush from top of grate . Checked salt setting and brine draw. All good.



found november invoice from dealer:

Trouble: Stop out and diagnose issue. Water tested 9 grains hard at the shop
from the hot side. We have been out multiple times on the same issue.
Service: || Water Softener: Cycled Water Softener / Treated Hardness Level -
Cold 2 / Treated Hardness Level - Hot 7 / Raw water was 21 gpg. Unit was
running out of capacity. Changed to a disc 4. Salt tank had a little mush
under the grid plate. Cleaned out salt tank

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its obvious the hot water used to be" good" at some point. i find it hard to believe if tank is at fault that i would EVER have soft hot water.
 

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Jeff H Young

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Maybe some wacky piping . test water going to waterheater at the connection. if its good then obviously its the heater. perhaps its all exposed and dumb to question the way its piped
 

Reach4

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never flushed the water heater. this procedure sounded like more than i could do
4.1. Filling the Inner (Domestic Water) Tank
Your indirect WH is like this -- a big tank, right, like this?
TT21_Smart-316-Family-Group_303x494.jpg

https://triangletube.com/products/residential-products/indirect-fired-water-heaters
So I think no weird procedure is needed. You only care about the residential water part.

Flushing is an easy DIY thing. See https://terrylove.com/forums/index....o-flush-a-hot-water-heater.79444/#post-576623 post #7.
 

Lucky

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ill let the softner guy test it at the heater if he thinks it's the issue. he will be here end of next week. how could he prove it's the tank anyway?

i tested the hot and it went down to 3 yesterday. but theres probably no way to confirm about lower capacity unless i check the cold right before a recharge. i just wish i was able to change the settings myself to have it charge more frequently. that would prove for sure what the issue is.

regarding the flushing, if the directions are as posted in my post 4 above, im not too comfy dealing with plumbing connections. it may be ez for others but ive learned not to mess with things i dont fully have confidence in. inner tank..outer tank. pressurized, this valve ..that valve on the boiler.

plus i want to hear why he may think it's in my tank. and it was zero at one point when i tested so my belief is that if the tank can have zero hardness at some point, it should at all points.

i wish there was a meter so i could tell when it's about to be charged and they would tell me how many gallons have to pass through so i could test right before a recharge.

also i doubt any water is getting by unmetered as i use very little water. as compared to everyone of friends and family that ive asked.
 

Lucky

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Maybe some wacky piping . test water going to waterheater at the connection. if its good then obviously its the heater. perhaps its all exposed and dumb to question the way its piped

i dont think thats true at all . i dont know what wacky piping people are thinking of. the cold water goes to the tank to be heated and theres a pipe that comes out of the heater and feeds the house. you can see it all in the utility room. very simple.

if the unit was setup for 16 and water is 21 then ill run out of salt and be pumping days of hard water into the tank . then it will take a while after the unit recharges to soften the hard water in the tank. but it may not ever 'catch up' as the unit runs out of soft water yet again and puts hard water back in the tank. its not the tank thats the issue. it's that hard water is being put into the tank. this defintely was the issue before per their miscalcuation of my hardness. and id have to dig but on the previous softener i'm pretty sure it was setup for hardness of 26. they put the old softener in in 2005 ish
 

Jeff H Young

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I suppose You could have a tee and a valve right next to tank and check it many times a day if you wanted.
 

Jeff H Young

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wouldnt hot water have constant 21 reading then? plus the line goes from the softener to the HW tank directly with just a split going down to the crawlspace to feed the house.
No need to worry about the hot water then. If you can follow the pipes my idea would be pointless I thought it could have been unknown perhaps drywalled
 

Lucky

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hot is down to 1 today. im sure friday when the guy comes hot will be zero. but still there is the problem of why it went higher

the lack of a volume reading on the device is frustrating as i cannot monitor gallons to try to test at the best times
 

Reach4

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hot is down to 1 today. im sure friday when the guy comes hot will be zero. but still there is the problem of why it went higher
The reason would be that the old water heater or piping may have had hardness minerals precipitated in it while the softener was not working well, and those minerals are slowly dissolving into the softened hot water. A good amount has already dissolved away.
 

Lucky

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so thankfully when the tech got here cold and soft were both 7.

he said they had disk 4 and it was set for 22 grains and was using 2.4 lb of salt per recharge and it uses 29 gallons of water per recharge. i think he said every 315 gallons it was to recharge. i forget the exact terminology but i believe he said something like we were on the upper edge of the 22 grain disk. i forget exactly. he said he can put a disk 5 in that is for 26 grains and it will recharge about 250 gallons using the same 2.4 lb of salt per recharge.

from memory when i moved in i was pretty sure i had paperwork about 26 grains the old unit was set to. he also took the time to explain the unit uses the soft water from the one tank to clean the resin in tank 2. which makes the resin last longer. he did a full cycle while he was here and during recharge tested the discharge and he stopped measuring at 30. i guess it really does get the hardness out lol.

our water rates here shot up last month. the same 2000 gallons water sewer was 97 and today the new bill same amount of water is 121. so it wont be fun using more water to recharge but i need softness!
 
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