Salt Dose Programming on Clack Unit

[Milanomike]

Been eating hot water heaters (on my 3rd) since installing a water softener ~7 years back. Finally learned soft water likes to eat anodes. Will monitor anode on new tank carefully, on 1st name basis with plumbing supply shop.

So, my engineering brain got to thinking about my water softener, specifically like maybe I can use less salt and have slightly harder water.

However, I think using less salt just softens less volume (gallons) of water, correct?

And the water is soft until I run out of it then it is back to the hardness the county sends me. (water is combo of city and aquifier waters so does vary a bit). In other words, I cannot set my softener to make my water 4 grains of hardness for example, correct?

Also, I'm using lots less water as both daughters are away, so I've been regenerating more than necessary. I had the DO set to 8 days, but recently bumped it to 16 days, still monitoring, but expect to have adequate soft water available for this duration. This might be good enough, but the engineering brain says need more info.

Set up: 1 cu ft of resin with Clack WS1EE valve, water hardness 8 - 10 grains, no Fe. Before the softener, water goes thru a sediment, then a charcoal filter. Overall, dramatic improvement in our water with this setup (except for getting real quick at installing HW tanks).

I think the brine refill cycle determines my salt dose, but not completely sure. Can anyone push me in the right direction to figure out how to determine salt dose. I've read tons of stuff on this, but this Clack valve hasn't revealed all its secrets yet.

Sorry for the length.

Thanks.

 

[Reach4]

With your chlorinated city water, you could set DO to even 30.

http://www.softenerparts.com/Clack_WS1_Valve_Parts_s/45.htm has a link for a manual.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bannerman]

I haven't replaced a water heater since 1998. No issues with fully softened water.

If you're having issues with one particular anode material, you could exchange the rod with one of a different material.

Perhaps you could post the water test report. As you're on municipal water, a report will likely be available online.

All the water traveling through the softener will be fully softened. You are correct in that setting a lower salt dose will reduce the softener's capacity between regeneration cycles.

Each salt dose setting will correspond to a specific amount of useable capacity but as the programmed capacity decreases thereby requiring less salt, the salt efficiency will increase.

For instance, your 1 cuft softener has a total softening capacity of 32K grains when the resin is first new. Over time, some resin will become fractured so the broken pieces will be flushed to drain, thereby reducing total capacity somewhat. As such, most 1 cuft units are considered to have 30K capacity which if all consumed, would require 15 lbs of salt to regenerate which equates to 2000 grains per lb.

If you program for 24K of usable capacity, that will require 8 lbs/salt = 3K grains/lb
If 20K of usable capacity is programmed, that will require 6 lbs/salt = 3,333 grains/lb.

An 8 lb setting is fairly efficient and would provide optimal water quality. Some people don't mind a little less quality in exchange for higher salt efficiency. It is advisable to not use less than a 6 lb setting.

The brine fill setting on the controller is in minutes X the BLFC number (often indicated on a label near the brine connection) in gpm = the brine tank fill volume. Each gallon entering the brine tank will dissolve 3 lbs of salt to make brine for the subsequent regeneration cycle.

 

[ENIGMA-2]

Been eating hot water heaters (on my 3rd) since installing a water softener ~7 years back. Finally learned soft water likes to eat anodes. Will monitor anode on new tank carefully, on 1st name basis with plumbing supply shop.

Don't know the answer your asking about, but began using a softener here when we built, and still using the original water heater for the last 37 years. I would imagine the anode disappeared decades ago, but who cares? Water heater still works great, doesn't leak, doesn't gurgle, plenty of hot water.

 

[Reach4]

I put a powered anode into my water heater. It does not get consumed.

 

[Milanomike]

Yeah, first HW tank lasted like 14 years, downhill since then. Been getting them for free, but next one I pay for will be a different brand. Running std aluminum anode. Looked into powered anodes, Mg anodes, etc. First approach will be to check anode regularly, they are cheap. I pulled the anode from the old tank after the 18 months is lasted and it was pretty much gone. Naturally, I suspect tank quality also, but for now I'm on water softeners.

Reach, thanks for links, the manual for the EE looks different than what I have will need to digest and see if I can figure it out.

My basic question is how can I tell what salt dose I am at today, I can't seem to figure it out from my notes from some years back or reading the Clack manuals I have. I'm clearly missing something or need more education in water science......

 

[Milanomike]

Reach, also just realized your 30 DO comment. Just let it run out of soft water and regenerate then, so of course someone might complain about that....

 

[Reach4]

Reach, also just realized your 30 DO comment. Just let it run out of soft water and regenerate then, so of course someone might complain about that....

I presume you have a turbine or paddlewheel to measure consumption. The C and H numbers let the controller know when you have less than one day of capacity left. Then the controller regenerates at 2 AM. So DO=30 only makes a difference if you did not use up the capacity sooner.

I am not suggesting that to preserve the anode. I don't think that would make a significant difference. The higher DO would let you potentially use less salt.

I suspect ENIGMA-2 might have higher pH water, or got a WH without any cracks in the glass lining.

 

[Bannerman]

'DO' stands for 'Days Overide'. If you set it for 30 days, it will force a regen cycle if one hasn't occured within the past 30 days, such as if you were on an extended vacation and no water had been utilized. A forced DO regen almost never occurs in actual practice.

I expect you now have 2 residents in your home. As each will typically average 60 gallons/day water consumption, with 10 grains/gallon hardness, your softening requirements are then 2 X 60 X 10 = 1200 grains/day. (Always use the highest anticipated hardness, not an average)

With a programmed usable capacity of 24K, you should expect a regeneration frequency of 20 days. (24,000 / 1200), using 8 lbs of salt per regen cycle.
If 20K usable capacity is programmed, the reg frequency will then be 16 days. (2o,ooo / 1200 = 16.666 (16) days) using 6 lbs/salt.

To know the current settings, you will need to review the various settings currently programmed into the controller. The Clack manual should indicate the proceedure. In addition, you will need to determine the BLFC (brine line flow control) number as specified in post #3 above.

 

[ditttohead]

Softeners do produce harder water when they are regenerated with less salt. This is one of the reasons why high salt dosing can sometimes make sense ie: steam boilers or EDI pre-treatment. But in general the difference will only be measured in ppm, not gpg. I have posted the charts here in the past, I may repost it tomorrow when I am back at the office unless someone has the time to look up one of my old posts with the "hardness leakage" chart.
Clack has a blender kit available that allows the end user to manually dial in a small amount of hardness. It is easily added to any Clack residential system.
As to the water heater not lasting... soft water will typically extend the life of a water heater but it is also common practice to run hard water for short periods of time to allow a thin protective layer of scale to form on the water heater components. When this layer becomes too thick, that is when the damage usually occurs and water heater efficiencies get bad. one week a year of hard water is not uncommon in commercial applications. Residential applications usually do not matter as much due to their very low water usage.

 

[Reach4]

From https://terrylove.com/forums/index....-a-water-softener-is-working-correctly.46268/

 

[ditttohead]

LOL, your awesome!

As you can see in the above charts hardness leakage and system efficiency are directly correlated to the amount of salt used. Water quality goes up, efficiency goes down. For most applications, hardness leakage up to 10 ppm is totally acceptable. Certain applications require <1-3 ppm hardness so high salt dosing can be a simple solution. The Hach 5B test kits is only accurate in 17 ppm increments. Hardness testing below this requires more accurate testing methods. Most companies consider anything under 30 ppm as soft enough, or < 2 gpg.

 

[Milanomike]

Guys, thanks for all the great info, but I need to digest all of this info first.

I can get the current brine fill setting from the Clack unit no problem.

I can also run a week of hard water as Dittohead suggests, but it seems for residential use this may not matter?

Yes, my water usage is down quite a bit, but I was clearly over regenerating.

Perhaps the real problem is that the new hot water heaters mfg'd by Mr Smith are not what they were 20 years back.......

 

[ditttohead]

Most modern high quality water heaters should last for many years without any problem. A water softener typically increases their life expectancy. Of course their are exceptions to this rule.

 

[Bannerman]

Suggest doing an online search of the model you're intending to purchase, before you purchase. Often, you will see enough negative user reviews to make you reconsider and choose a different model with a better track record.

 

[Milanomike]

Lots of info out there on water softeners not helping HW heaters, at work, so don't have those sites handy. I am also convinced AO Smith quality has gone down the drain (no pun intended), will look at Rheem or Bradford White for the next one I pay for. Need some time to study the Clack valve a bit more. Thanks for all the info.

 

[ditttohead]

If you read it online, it must be true.

Sarcasm filter off

Many water heater manufacturers will mention softeners as a negative or positive, but many now put ridiculous restrictions that are virtually unachievable so as to minimize their warranty and claims liability. A post from a year or so ago on this forum was very entertaining in that the water quality had to be between a very specific, and nearly impossible hardness level in order for the warranty to be maintained. Considering they are in the business of selling water heaters to you every 5-8 years...



I am licensed boiler technician, softeners are basically required for most boilers. As to water heaters, softeners are typically very beneficial in most applications. If you were to spend 25 years on the field cutting open water heaters that failed due to hard water, you would understand better how detrimental hard water can be. That being said, water is far to complex to say that softeners are always beneficial. There are simply an unlimited number of variables that can not all be considered to say if a softener can cause a water heaters life expectancy to extended or reduced. In general, the lack of scale build up allows for considerable reductions energy consumption. The lack of calcium buildup on the system can also cause the water heater to be more exposed to potentially aggressive water. If a water heaters glass lining is not compromised, in general aggressive water will have no negative affects. Components that are not coated are the items that can fail.

 

[Bannerman]

Smith may have an alternate WH model with a better track record.

As with many items, people always want things cheaper but they don't seem to realize that to make items less costly, something has to give. We're in a disposable society where too many people accept having to replace items within a short period of time.

The manufacturers who long had reputations for quality products, often now need to offer lower grade versions of their products so as to compete with cheaply made products arriving from offshore. While higher quality version may continue to be manufactured, often those versions are not known as they are not offered in big box or smaller retailers.

You might want to contact Smith directly to enquire as to other possible solutions they maybe able to suggest.

As previously requested, post your water's test results. While many people perceive softened water to be the cause of the issues being experienced, it maybe actually the water's pH or other elements in the water which are creating or contributing to the problem.